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| Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic Motivation | |
| Posted By: Decommissioner | Date: 12/14/10 3:47 p.m. |
In Response To: Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic Motivation (RC Master) : Because he's in a better position to derive his own fun out of games than a : lot of people are. I can also be IN the group of people I consider lucky : (to an extent, shiney armour IS shiney after all :) ) and still consider : them lucky. Ok, I misinterpreted your post. : But, you might never have done the equivalent of the challenge requirements
Some of the challenges are fun. But if was only about directing gameplay, then the only thing that should be gained from completing challenges is increasing the counter for completed challenges. That counter has no effect on anything and no external reward. If you personally set it as a goal, it will have meaning to you, because of intrinsic motivation. But a lot of challenges are not fun and are not actually challenging. People are still rewarded with cR, so the do them. This is what adds to the feeling that challenges are ruining the fun of Reach. : Because somewhere, you have a goal of progressing towards the next rank/peice
Well, aside from the last attachment for my helmet (which requires Mythic rank), I have all of the armor I want. After thinking about it, as far as I can tell, my only goal is to be "done" (which requires reaching Inheritor). I view that as removing the PIS from my game. : BTW, I saw talk on b.net that the cap has been raised to 120k? *shrugs* Quite possible; Wu linked to a post on NeoGAF by urk that said the cap was changing soon. I have been playing Reach a lot less recently and haven't come near the daily cR cap for a while now. : Well I'm not sure what to say. You should definitely try to ignore the
I don't care about the credits now that I have the armor I want, but when I hit the cap, it means that the playing that I am doing, which I would be doing even if there wasn't a credit system, is no longer counting towards my desire to 'remove' the PIS. Pretty much, I don't even care that I don't earn any credits on the days I don't play nor that I only earn a few thousand credits on some of hte days I do play, but I soundly care when I'm not allowed to earn any more credits. It's pretty much like the game saying to me "I know you hate my system, so I'm going to make it worse by limit your ability to progress through the system. so ha!" : I don't think this is necessarily true. And I'm having trouble distinguishing
Well, some things that are external rewards for some people are intrinsic motivation for other people. It is hard to distinguish. But there are some things that are universally considered external by psychologists. The quintessential example of this is money. Intrinsically, you don't actually ever want money—money is just paper. But since there are things you want that you can buy with money, you of course realize that you need to earn some money. Thus, money becomes an external reward for doing things you would not otherwise be inclined to do and that have nothing to do with what you want to spend you money on. In Reach, the entire system is based around credits. Credits alone mean absolutely nothing to the players. But since credits are used to get armor and rank, people start to value the credits and they become an external reward. The primary external reward, in this case. So now players are thinking about how many credits they are or aren't earning. : I'm having difficulty thinking up of an example situation in which a player
It's not about having goals, it's about external rewards being introduced. You mentioned somewhere else in this thread that player progress through a level to see what's next or to get the ending. While those are goals, they have no external meaning. You do that because you want to reach that goal. If a system was introduced where you had to purchase the next part of the story, by earning credits from previous parts (and you couldn't just earn the required credits by playing once or even twice through), that would significantly decrease the players motivation to complete the game. I only just thought of the above example as I was typing. But thinking about it, I believe that nobody would really find such a system fun and it actually serves as a pretty good example of what I feel has been done to my multiplayer/firefight experience. : I do speedruns, right? I breifly held the record for Nightfall SLASO/Mythic
And those things hold meaning to you, even if nobody else thinks it means something. Unlike credits, which don't mean anything to anybody by themselves. : Well, Flawless Cowboy would be... Aside from the ability to boost it, I think that it's the ONLY good commendation in the game. However, the number required for it are ridiculously stupid. That's another problem with Reach's PIS (though not particularly relevant to this thread): the numbers for the commendations seem to have pulled out of Bungie's butt. : I too think Reach's PIS is flawed. I'm arguing against the idea that they are
If the system somehow was linked to the amount of fun or self satisfaction I gained from playing a game due to my intrinsic motivation, sure, that would be a good system. But when external rewards are introduced, then I say that it is an bad thing to have as part of the game. : Like medals. Yes. And I have no inherent problem with medals in any Halo game. Though, in Reach, some of the medals are completely retarded, but that doesn't detract from my game experience. : Well, by virtue of them
A) After reaching level 22 (or something like that), which is very easy to earn, the player will have unlocked everything (weapons, gadgets) that there is to unlock in the game. While I may very well reach the max rank in that game (still have 10 go), I do not have a feeling that I need to do it to get rid of the level system like I do in Reach because EXP doesn't get me anything, unlike cR. B) Again, only applies if *you* care about it. In Reach, I cared about armor (let's face it, some of it is pretty cool looking). But now that I have the armor I want, the external rewards don't mean much to me. This 'removal' of the external rewards has decreased my overall intrinsic motivation to play Reach and I almost find myself subconsciously trying to make the rewards relevant to me again so that I will want to play Reach more (like I said, I like the actual gameplay). I guess this is why I want to reach Inheritor, because I know it will keep me playing for a long while. If the system never existed in the first place, I would play simply to play, like I did in Halo 3. : The game encourages you, through the weapon unlock and military rank system,
I said I like BFBC@'s system better, but I still don't think it's great. I would have LOVED for everything to be unlocked as soon as I got the game and for pins/insignias to just be there for bragging right (no EXP attached). But the main thing about BFBC2 is that it's pretty darn easy to hit the last rank required for all unlocks. : It IS a nice way to tally how much you've earned a certain type of
I feel that not just the bonuses ward the idea. Having an "out of X" warps it to. If it was just a pure number of headshots (or whatever commendation we're talking about), then that would be cool. It wouldn't be linked to some arbitrary, external reward. : I.e. Once you've Onyx'd your headshots, you won't get any more Bonuses for
Yeah, even if I loved the reach commendation system in every other way, that stuff is complete B.S. : Battlefield is more strongly class based than Reach so that sort of thing
: Tracer dart sucks :P I like it, but I certainly see why people don't. But In that game you only need like 100 plants and 30 dart assists for the insignias. In Reach, I need 10,000 frickin kills with auto weapons. WTF. This is the main reason I think the BFBC2 system is better: smaller totals required. : Infinite NEEDLER!!!! Works fine if your teammates don't use rockets/snipers, but that rarely happens. If they had kept it so that you could pick weapons in sniper attack, I wouldn't be so ticked off. They claim it "ruins the integrity of the game" but really it just makes it less fun. : ...At killing. Well, the kill is the only part that counts towards the commendation, which means that the best use of that weapon isn't even part of the PIS. Good work, Bungie. (Well, it might be part of Jack of All Trades, idk, but even if it is, it isn't required for the commendation to be leveled up.) But most of the second half of this post is moot, as we both agree that the there are improvements that could be made to the Reach PIS.
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