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Re: You know, you're kinda lucky Cody...
Posted By: Cody Miller <cody@haloreachisnotcanon.net>Date: 12/13/10 8:47 p.m.

In Response To: You know, you're kinda lucky Cody... (RC Master)


: Well, lucky in the sense that, you're one of the types of people who don't
: need an overt 'player investment system' to derive enjoyment out of your
: games. You're independant. You've developed the ability to self-generate
: goals for yourself and go for them, regardless of whether or not the game
: is overtly asking you to. You can generate some of the conditions
: necessary for flow* to happen all by yourself. And by extention, get more
: enjoyment out of a game than other people that may have played once and
: given up on.

: You look at the campaign and you say 'hmm, how fast can I do this level on
: Legendary?' You get a time, you reasses, you try to beat your old time,
: try to discover new tricks or better ways of tackling situations etc.

: Some people, are not so lucky.

: Or rather, cannot self-generate these goals with respect to games.

If somebody is unable to enjoy a leisure activity without someone else telling them how to derive enjoyment from it, then I am personally quite sad for such a person. The whole point of playing games and engaging in leisure activities is precisely to do things that interest you.

: Theres a reason a lot of people buy game, beat it once, maybe a few times
: working their way up to the hardest difficulty, and then never touch it
: again or trade it back in to their game store. They've overcome some/all
: of the challenges the game has set out for them (that they can perceive)
: and... thats it. The game is over. Theres nothing left to do.

: Some people might stare at their game collection wondering 'what can I play
: tonight?' Not because they feel spoilt for choice at the range of exciting
: and interesting experiences they are presented with, but because there
: seems (to them) to be so little choice of oppurtunities for enjoyment
: there. They've overcome every challenge set by the game they can already,
: and either the remaining challenges seem unreasonably difficult or there
: are no apparent challenges left (and I admit to having had this experience
: myself many years ago,).

In such a case, what is wrong with simply not playing? Go do something else that is still stimulating.

: Player Investment systems provide players with goals to strive for: 'I want
: this peice of armour because its shiney, so i need X rank and Y credits.
: To gain credits I can do these things...'
: The commendations, armoury and ranks provide long term goals asking you to
: keep playing. And the challenges provide daily/weekly reasons to get on
: and play this particular game today for a little while.

: They are, yes I suppose, fairly cheap ways to get the player to play more of
: a game that, without the player investment system, they would have
: probably stopped playing before (i.e. shiny 'rank' symbols and superflous
: pieces of armour et al). But thats not inherently a bad thing. It can
: provide the goals, feedback and little extra reasons to play the game that
: previously they would not have had. Extra layers to the game that
: challenge the player to complete them (e.g. a rank system) with clear cut
: rules (do this, get that) and the player can work to try to master this
: element of the game as well (e.g. earning credits as efficiently as
: possible). This doesn't preclude real enjoyment at all. In fact it can
: work to set up the exact conditions to allow it to occur: see Beckx's
: post for a good example of this.

The problem though is that these are inherently manipulative, so that players will prefer them and continue to play, where otherwise they would have moved on to a different game or activity.

: You, in a sense, are free of these 'Player Investment Systems'; you play a
: game for its own sake, to master it, to discover its nuances, and can
: find/create challenges appropriate to your skills with little to no need
: of help from the game developer in the form of extraneous reward systems.
: Thats awesome . Keep doing what you're doing.

: Others are not so self-motivated. P. I. S.es help them to get more value out
: of their purchase of the game. Help them to discover different parts of
: the game or different ways of playing that they hadn't even considered
: before. Help them focus their time, direct their energy to some goal,
: provide feedback on that goal and make them feel accomplished when they
: achieve that goal. Even if the rewards the game presents in exchange for
: these actions are silly and meaningless, that doesn't matter, because, in
: the end, those aren't the real rewards , the reward is playing the game
: more, and having fun while doing it.

Correct, but such systems are needed only when the game no longer is fun, otherwise players would simply still be playing.

: These are admirable goals, and P.I.S. features are ones that shouldn't be
: dropped because they're missused sometimes or because some people don't
: need them or it sometimes feels like it is trying to get you to play for
: the wrong reasons.

It is always trying to get you to play for the wrong reasons. The system says non motivated players will get bored with our game after one playthrough, so we must entice them to keep playing. Thus, the system is designed to keep players playing past when they would have otherwise moved on to a new activity that is new and fun.

: Sometimes its good to do something relatively non-cerebral/physical
: performance related. To unwind, to relax. Very, very few people can keep
: up 'productive' activity from waking moment to the instant they fall
: asleep.

There are plenty of games that still respect the time of the player and are not manipulative, yet aren't in your face action games. Adventure games, Simulation Games, Strategy games, etc.

: In fact, reading the job description there, its seems that Bungie recognises
: that Reach's P.I.S. isn't perfect; they want someone to help them improve
: what they're doing for the future. Heres some key phrases I picked out:

: "...fine line between a reward that encourages players to have fun
: and an incentive that enslaves them "

There is no line! Every incentive the developer offers the player necessarily enslaves them since their fun is then based on the reward given to them by someone else! The only way one is not enslaved, is if one can themselves derive fun i>themselves.

: "...devise a way for a player to grow..."
: "...prevent by design griefing or exploiting..."

Any player reward system can be exploited in some way. If your system offers rewards for anything other than winning, it can be manipulated.


Message Index




Replies:

On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeCody Miller 12/13/10 2:12 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeZackDark 12/13/10 2:28 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's Timeelessar787 12/13/10 2:36 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeWayward Spleen™ 12/13/10 2:38 p.m.
           Exactly what you saidGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 2:47 p.m.
                 Re: Exactly what you saidCody Miller 12/13/10 2:53 p.m.
                       Re: Exactly what you saidbluerunner 12/13/10 3:04 p.m.
                       Re: Exactly what you saidGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 3:05 p.m.
                             Re: Exactly what you saidCody Miller 12/13/10 3:27 p.m.
                                   Re: Exactly what you saidGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 3:31 p.m.
                                   Here I still disagree. But not as much as before.munky-058 12/13/10 5:24 p.m.
                                         Re: Here I still disagree. But not as much as befoCody Miller 12/13/10 5:32 p.m.
                 Re: Exactly what you saidSonofMacPhisto 12/13/10 3:00 p.m.
                       Re: Exactly what you saidGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 3:02 p.m.
                             The worst part of the system?Wayward Spleen™ 12/13/10 3:14 p.m.
                             Re: Exactly what you saidRC Master 12/13/10 3:56 p.m.
                 Re: Exactly what you saidWayward Spleen™ 12/13/10 3:09 p.m.
           Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeCody Miller 12/13/10 2:50 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 2:48 p.m.
           Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 2:49 p.m.
                 Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 2:57 p.m.
                       Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 3:00 p.m.
                             Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 3:07 p.m.
                                   Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 3:09 p.m.
                                         Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 3:13 p.m.
                                               Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeZackDark 12/13/10 3:17 p.m.
                                                     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 3:24 p.m.
                                                           Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeZackDark 12/13/10 3:30 p.m.
                                               Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeCody Miller 12/13/10 3:21 p.m.
                                                     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 3:27 p.m.
                                                           Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimecheapLEY 12/13/10 5:00 p.m.
                                                                 Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeLouis Wu 12/13/10 5:02 p.m.
                                                                       Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeCody Miller 12/13/10 5:10 p.m.
                                                                             Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeThorsHammer 12/13/10 7:01 p.m.
                                                                 Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/14/10 3:28 p.m.
                                                                       Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeCody Miller 12/14/10 3:40 p.m.
                                   Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeZackDark 12/13/10 3:14 p.m.
                                   I've got something the covenant can smoke...bluerunner 12/13/10 3:20 p.m.
                                   Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeSonofMacPhisto 12/13/10 3:28 p.m.
                                         Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 4:00 p.m.
                                               Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeSonofMacPhisto 12/13/10 4:38 p.m.
                                   Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeKermit 12/13/10 8:03 p.m.
                                         Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeRC Master 12/13/10 8:36 p.m.
                                               Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeKermit 12/13/10 8:45 p.m.
                             Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeWayward Spleen™ 12/13/10 3:18 p.m.
                                   Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeBeckx 12/13/10 3:26 p.m.
     Here's an odd notionGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 3:20 p.m.
           Re: Here's an odd notionZackDark 12/13/10 3:25 p.m.
           Re: Here's an odd notionManKitten 12/13/10 4:37 p.m.
           Re: Here's an odd notionRC Master 12/13/10 4:43 p.m.
           Here's an odder notionThorsHammer 12/13/10 7:20 p.m.
                 Re: Here's an odder notionGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 7:21 p.m.
                 Re: Here's an odder notionRC Master 12/13/10 8:17 p.m.
                 Re: Here's an odder notionCody Miller 12/14/10 2:01 p.m.
     Your opinion.munky-058 12/13/10 3:47 p.m.
           Re: Your opinion.Kermit 12/13/10 3:58 p.m.
           I agree with you and CodyManKitten 12/13/10 4:08 p.m.
                 Re: I agree with you and CodyBeckx 12/13/10 4:33 p.m.
                       Re: I agree with you and CodyManKitten 12/13/10 4:45 p.m.
                 I've always been supportive of honorable gameplay.munky-058 12/13/10 5:09 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeChrisTheeCrappy 12/13/10 4:27 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeKalamariKidd 12/13/10 5:19 p.m.
           Excuse me!?RC Master 12/13/10 7:58 p.m.
                 Re: Excuse me!?Beckx 12/13/10 8:33 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeWurny 12/13/10 5:43 p.m.
     You know, you're kinda lucky Cody...RC Master 12/13/10 7:52 p.m.
           oh yeah... ^ *long* *NM*RC Master 12/13/10 8:18 p.m.
           Love this post!Kermit 12/13/10 8:21 p.m.
                 Re: Love this post!General Battuta 12/13/10 8:55 p.m.
                       Re: Love this post!Kermit 12/13/10 9:29 p.m.
                 Re: Love this post!Bernard Strauss 12/14/10 10:50 a.m.
                       Re: Love this post!Kermit 12/14/10 1:02 p.m.
           Re: You know, you're kinda lucky Cody...Cody Miller 12/13/10 8:47 p.m.
                 Re: You know, you're kinda lucky Cody...RC Master 12/13/10 10:31 p.m.
     Fantastic..c0ld vengeance 12/13/10 9:19 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeRagashingo 12/13/10 9:19 p.m.
           Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 9:22 p.m.
                 Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeRagashingo 12/13/10 9:34 p.m.
                       Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeGeneral Battuta 12/13/10 10:00 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeAzo 'Galvat 12/13/10 9:44 p.m.
           Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's Timekidtsunami 12/13/10 11:06 p.m.
     External Rewards on Intrinsic MotivationDecommissioner 12/13/10 11:02 p.m.
           I pretty much agree.uberfoop 12/13/10 11:18 p.m.
           Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic MotivationRC Master 12/14/10 7:21 a.m.
                 Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic MotivationDecommissioner 12/14/10 10:58 a.m.
                       Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic MotivationRC Master 12/14/10 12:49 p.m.
                             Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic MotivationDecommissioner 12/14/10 3:47 p.m.
                                   Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic MotivationRC Master 12/17/10 4:49 a.m.
                                         Re: External Rewards on Intrinsic MotivationDecommissioner 12/17/10 2:36 p.m.
     Two Words: Skinner Box *NM*The Loot 12/14/10 12:10 a.m.
     Campaigns are the classic reward systemRC Master 12/14/10 7:08 a.m.
     Very nicely written, Cody.yakaman 12/14/10 1:16 p.m.
     How Oddly Relevant...Bones153 12/14/10 3:13 p.m.
           Re: How Oddly Relevant...SonofMacPhisto 12/14/10 3:44 p.m.
     Re: On Bungie and the Value of the Player's TimeNotTheVacuum 12/15/10 10:41 a.m.



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