In Response To: Mothergoat's Second Opinion of Halo 2 (mothergoat)
To start off with... Microsoft whoring concerns? From YOU!? If you'd have skipped that part I'd probably not care so much... but reverting to the old "OMG MICROSOFT IS EVUL" blurb is way too telling.
I cringe as I say that, because I really respect you in the community, and I know I'm only forced to say this because I'm a complete arse.
Overall, I like the critique, but I have to put on the gloves...
: Bungie is full of great guys that I respect and I know they welcome
: criticism and hopefully will listen to the many disconcerted fans across
: the world when trying to get the series back on track with Halo 3.
This is the line that lets me forgive anything I don't approve of here... ALL opinions help Bungie know how they're doing. And the severity of haters this time around is something I don't think Bungie's seen (since Oni, anyway, but overall Halo2 is still making a killing on Live... the masses do like it.. no one knows quite what to make of it).
: Bungie, with Microsoft’s huge push no doubt
Okay, I have to do it...
-_-
: This creation is Halo 2, an obviously rushed title
Obviously rushed? I don't see that, myself. I think you're letting some of your own expectations weigh in a little when you go here... I don't think many people (I KNOW that a big chunk of people people) didn't think of the game as rushed until the moment it ended.
: I am going to argue
: that Bungie may not really understand why Halo 1 was as great as it was.
The big problem here is... no one knows. I still can't pin down why Halo was so great... and I still can't pin down why Halo 2 isn't quite as great as Halo was. There's just... something. There's a lot of little factors, but I've never seen anyone describe that exact something.
: Unlike every other game, where we critics get
: advanced reviewable copies of games, either retail or debug, Bungie didn’t
: let anyone important have a copy in their hands until November 8.
*cough*BS*cough*. A lot of games choose weird ways to release or not to release their games to the media, and while Halo 2 was unusual, it isn't the only game ever to do this. And ALL sorts of games do this- you can't pretend that reviewers don't ever touch a bad game ahead of time. Bungie also DID have the impressions of Alpha and Beta testers online, as well as dozens of public demos (Zanzibar, anyone?) which were attended by reviewers, not to mention the "Beta" Halo multiplayer (only some levels, some weapons) was handled extensively all over the world before then. There was a metric ton of player impressions on the internet a long, long time before then.
: Of course, this was under the guise of “protecting the
: story.” Really?
Did you know about the Arbiter beforehand? Gravemind? Did you know the cliffhanger ending? (from media sources, not leaks)
: None of the aforementioned publications’ reviews contained
: spoilers because of a strict embargo, anyway.
That's protecting the story, isn't it?
: By this time, the reviews
: were already written, not reflecting on in depth time spent with the
: title.
The most pissed-off gamers were the ones who blew through it and hated the ending. This would lower scores, if anything.
: It was this odd review process that I believe made Bungie hope that
: the big time critics would not get the chance to experience the rushed
: aspects and the impact of the deeper changes in the game.
Most players I've heard from tend to get more happy as they get into the nuances, not less. Could just be me...
: “You could fit all of Halo 1 into a canyon of Halo2.” -Bungie
Remember the bridge at New Mombasa? Remember the Gondola ride? the vehicle-heavy areas around the later Arbiter levels? Halo 2 did have some mighty massive things going on. These things are lost on a lot of people- which is the real problem- but that doesn't change the fact that they do really exist. And Bungie did intend for Halo 2 to be beatable in one setting- you can disagree with them, but you can't say they "failed"... Of course, you disagree that you should be able to get it in one run, which is a valid point. It's just that Bungie meant to do things the way they did, and a lot of people disagree.
: “It will be released when it’s done.” -Bungie
Everyone who follows Bungie knows that "coming soon"(tm) is something Bungie probably won't ever shake. We were all hopeful, as were they, but it didn't happen. This I agree on- Bungie needs to sharpen up here.
: True or False: Bungie took three years to develop Halo 2. False. Watch the
: DVD extras. Halo 2 was rushed in every way.
You didn't follow Halo's development, did you? ;)
The final version of Halo came together in something like 6 months or less (I think it was really 3 intense months where things really got done according to memory). Bungie is famous for this... might wanna read up. It's some funny yet sorta scary stuff.
: The only excuse that Bungie may have (that would still be poor) is that
: Microsoft decided
Insert: -_-
: Much of Halo 2 multiplayer caters to casual gamers who can’t aim.
BS!!!! The Battle Rifle/Carbine and the Sniper/Beam still absolutely rule the map... when people choose to use them. A lot of people, however, just grab their dual weapons and run. The difference is that the Pistol is gone, and so are Pistol whores, so up-close combat is much more viable. I love this change, because now Snipers are special. If the enemy team has a really great Sniper, you can be in big trouble quickly if you can't retaliate (and the choice of dual weapons means that a lot of people won't be ready for that retaliation).
: I’m not going to drone on
: about the dumbing down of the pistol. (Despite too long of a range, the
: pistol’s accuracy and power is one of Halo 1’s great assets that set it
: apart in a good way.
Pistol whores ARE the lowest common denominator, and getting them out of the game is a MASSIVE plus. I have a hundred times more fun in a game if everyone fights with at least a modicum of "honor" and doesn't just use the cheapest tactics. When you can be powerful in any situation, when you can win even if you're not set up in circumstances to your favor, THAT's skill. Not learning one method of combat and only ever using that one method all the time every time. I hate those people.
: Ironically, the only reason Halo 2 is
: selling so well is BECAUSE of how Halo 1 played, not in spite of.
The (thousands? millions?) of buyers who never played Halo, or only played it once at a friend's house, disagree. Yes, they do exist. And yes, there's a LOT of them. They seem to show the same general level of enjoyment as everyone else from what I've seen, maybe even more because they aren't as jaded with expectation.
: The rocket is nowhere near as effective, even though homing is a nice touch.
What? It kills just fine for me, although the lessened ammo supply and *gasp* balance in the game make it a little less newbie-friendly. It still kills the heck out of people just as it always did, although it's not quite the "I have the bigger gun now you're dead" that it used to be. I like the new rocket launcher a lot more. It just feels better.
: The Battle Rifle and Carbine are no substitute for the pistol.
I though you said you weren't a pistol whore. ;)
Somebody wasn't telling the whole truth...
: Most
: weapons you will encounter are based on spraying and praying.
The Rocket Launcher, Brute Shot, Carbine, Battle Rifle, Sniper, and Beam Rifle disagree. You do see sprayers more, but you always see automatic weapons more on a (virtual) battlefield. They're easy to use and effective when you need them. Just like your starter guns should be.
: It’s clear
: that Bungie wants the game dynamics this way since you always spawn with
: the SMG.
As opposed to the old Assault Rifle? 0.o
The SMGs seem to be even less accurate than it was to me...
: No longer is the dynamic focused on who can aim better,
: glorifying Halo’s wonderfully tight controls, but rather who can get the
: reticule to turn red and pull the trigger first.
If you choose to play Swords matches. So don't. Get some friends, fire up a game with the weapons you don't like off. It's simple. If you choose to play Ranked, you choose to play on a playing field that requires you to claw your own way up. You yourself say in this very post that people who learn to fight at distance and pwn the sprayers will get ahead... guess what? You yourself admit that ranking forces someone like you (who hates the sprayers) to pick up an accurate gun and improve your skills by learning to pwn them in your own way. That's the whole point here!
: Those who love to run
: around with bullet hoses won’t be as good and will be paired with like
: players. Those who excel and like to aim will get better and rise in the
: rankings, being paired with their like skill. With so much focus on spray
: and pray, the rankings will become less accurate, undermining the purpose
: of the rankings system.
You contract yourself right here. Ranged combat always defeats short-range combat under the right circumstances... people who want to become the best of the best universally learn to kill opponents at range because it minimizes your own losses. The best players in Halo 2 DO pick up the Carbine or the Sniper and they DO pwn people who use dual wielding. That's exactly what you want to have happen, and it's exactly what does happen.
: Not only is the blast radius of a
: grenade and rocket severely and reduced for no good reason
I don't like the grenade nerfing, but I've never noticed the rocket changes at all. It seems to pwn like it should.
: I threw an
: accurately placed grenade to detonate on the backside of the moving hog.
: The hog would gloriously fly with correct trajectory
Vehicles don't do backflips and rolls and such when a grenade goes off (if descriptions of hummers hitting landmines says anything). The game IS a lot more realistic in this respect. It's not as satisfying, I admit, but your realizsm is in reverse.
: I am all about playing as the Arbiter. Great twist! But the human element of
: Earth’s destruction is non-existent. We’ve been led on with “Earth will
: never be the same” for the sole purpose of setting us up for the big
: twist. Earth is neglected almost entirely. The ending sets up a second
: level on Earth, but of course, the credits start to roll. I wanted to
: learn about Chief. The story seems way too rushed and convoluted. This
: really lends a lot to the Halo 3 next year theory. Since Halo 2
: essentially ends where we thought it would start.
There is no Halo 3 next year theory. The February 9th thing is and was a hoax, and Bungie really honestly isn't producing the game at the moment unless they're vastly better at keeping secrets than we've ever imagined. Halo 2 left their asses kicked and their souls drained from what I've seen... I doubt they'd want to do Halo 3 right now even if it was planned. Halo 2 got chopped. It was Bungie's fault for having crappy time management. That doesn't mean Halo 3 is ready to ship.
: Somehow, Bungie listened to the wrong people. Since when does asymmetry =
: better?
Since Red Base on Blood Gulch had the huge advantage of the Sniper Hill, and Hang Em High had the tricks to get the (red?) flag away from the base via a secret method, asymmetry hasn't meant better since before Halo, at least.
: It may look like a more “realistic” locale, but what does realism
: have to do with a game that features aliens, cybernetically enhanced
: super-soldiers, slipspace jumps and ring-shaped planets?
You just said you want the grenades to feel more realistic... 0.o
: Aside from the
: fact that there are ridiculously few multiplayer maps to begin with
Halo 2 has more than Halo, doesn't it?
: desired. Aside from Lockout, Midship and Headlong
-That's funny. I only had about three levels I really liked playing in Halo as well. Blood Gulch, HeH, and Sidewinder. Point: Even Boarding action has fans. I know way too many people who love playing that level... I see no reason for it to exist at all, but they play it constantly.
: “Multiplayer maps are all about moments. You have
: to build moments into your map or it will be boring.”
Opening the gate at Zanzibar, flying a Banshee out of the bases on Coagulation, air/grav lifts on (insert level), ramps on (Midtown? whatever it's called)... moments like those?
: What also makes the 11 Halo 2 maps (Foundation doesn’t even count)
Because you don't want it to? Foundation is helluva fun! Rocket Gladiator games- AHOY!
: I could play almost any gametype on any Halo 1 map and feel it
: was fun.
So you enjoyed playing one-on-one rifles only matches on BG too, eh? Racing on non-vehicular levels? No NAV point all invisible oddball at Sidewinder? This is a point people fail to use common sense on... some gametypes just don't work on some maps. It happens.
: The Halo 2 maps just don’t scream Halo.
Except for Coagulation and Beaver Creek!?
: It’s apparent from the DVD extras that much time and money was spent on
: making some of Halo 2 seem more “real.” There are endless cries and
: defenses on several Halo forums citing “well at least it’s more real” as a
: valid defense for the weapons debate, multiplayer maps and so on.
You said you wanted the grenades to be more "real", and then griped about realism in the next paragraph. Something's amiss...
: So what happened to the superhuman strength
: of a Spartan? Apparently those SMGs pack so much punch that even Chief has
: a hard time keeping ‘em down. Why make the most common gun have such a
: drawback when it’s the weakest to begin with?
Master Chief has a 7foot vertical leap from a standing position and can flip tanks. Don't even go there... please? You pick and choose your realism.
: Vehicles. Poof! They’re gone. We get to drive a Wraith and a Spectre now.
Warthog, Ghost, Wraith, Spectre, Scorpion, Banshee
~compared to~
Warthog, Ghost, Scorpion
: Where is the human answer to the Banshee?
Bungie couldn't come up with anything that didn't suck. I can't think of anything, either. Helicopters wouldn't fit, jets are way too fast and uncontrollable, VTOLs would be too much like hovercraft, you can't have the Pelican without the Phantom and that's just a mess...
: The
: Kestrel was there.
WTF is a Kestrel?
: Couldn’t tame the ATV? I don’t buy it. It
: flipped too much? So does the new ‘hog. But there is a rolling assistance
: that usually gets the ‘hog back on its wheels. Could’ve done the same with
: the ATV.
Not to mention it didn't have any guns, so it was useless except as a transport, and firing one gun directly forward (from what we've heard) also sucked. I can see exactly why- wasting ammo when you can't even aim at all and all one-handed weapons are pretty inaccurate anyway? Wouldn't work. I agree with Bungie- it was a hard beast to tame and in the grand scheme of things didn't fit. Not to mention time constrants pushing unnecessary bits to the side- screw the ATV and work on the other things that you say were wrong.
: The new Banshee handling is bad. It can no longer hover.
Yes it can. Hold it level and let off the controls. It hovers. Push forward (to shoot at someone) and it moves a little. The handling quirks are to make it so it's impossible to just be a bastard in it. Which people ALREADY did on Live when they were losing a 1-on-1, which is why the Banshee was pulled from that playlist. This point-counterpoint has already happened, and we already know the outcome- a stronger Banshee would have only been a much larger problem here. Then where would the cutoff be? A Banshee that only works in 16player games? If a nuked Banshee keeps it fair in 2-on-2 games, I wants it.
: Worried about
: Banshee camping? Just make it more fragile. It wasn’t that bad in PC at
: all. Even with the fuel rod pulse bomb thing. I played PC religiously and
: NEVER was Banshee whoring a factor in non-noob games.
I felt the same way about the Banshee in Halo PC. However, I've also killed a mess of people in the new Banshee and it's still an absolutely critical piece in a lot of games. It seems just fine the way it is.
: The new warthog isn’t as fun, either.
: Now it’s wound so tight
: that it’s hardly fun to use anymore even with the e-brake.
I was a Hog fanatic in Halo, and using the E-brake properly lets you do all the fishtailing you want. Trust me- the Hog still does donuts like nobody's business. Now, I can go fast and straight when I want, and loose when I want. And I used to steer Halo's warthog at times entirely by careening off obstacles intentionally so I could fishtail the whole way there- trust me, if the sliding was totally nuked, I'd be pissed. It's still in, you just have another option now.
: Single wielding a dual-capable weapon is an
: immediate imbalance.
Tell that to the dozens of people I've pwned through smart single-weapon wielding. If you have grenades, single and dual wielding are absolutely equal. When you run out, yes get yourself a second gun. But that's common sense... if I don't have grenades I need a gun that can do all my killing for me. No longer am I, personally, stuck saying "crap, I can't afford to stop shooting to throw a grenade". I was the kind of guy who'd play though Halo's entire campaign without ever throwing a grenade. I use them tons now, and a large part is thanks to this feature. Thank you, Bungie.
: Let me say, again, that there was no reason to make the pistol weaker.
Again, are you SURE you're not a Pistol whore? Maybe you never saw a good Pistol player in action...
: Just
: make the other weapons stronger.
0.o
So fix the unbalanced weapon by making everything else unbalanced, and making the whole system suck, so that dual wielding would be able to spray a whole team from halfway across a map and mow them all down through random errant hits? No, thank you.
: And for the love of God, Bungie, give the ranked gamers a medium
: range weapon to spawn with.
You know where the Battle Rifle and Carbine spawn, don't you? Go get them! If you want your leg up, go nab it.
: In the end, I will be playing a lot of Halo 2 on XBL because Halo 1 isn’t on
: there. I guarantee you that if Halo 1 was re-released with the same Xbox
: Live capabilities, more people would prefer Halo 1. No doubt in my mind.
You have far too little faith in fanboys. The 2 means that the people you like most might only play Halo, but the Masses will be playing the 2. Because that 2 is all that matters to most of the masses.
*sigh*
Dang that was long.
I respect you as a person, mothergoat, and I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.
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