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Re: Thoughts Collected
Posted By: Leisandir <joecooperstein@hotmail.com>	Date: 6/22/12 8:08 a.m.
In Response To: Thoughts Collected (Cody Miller) : I will collect my arguments here so the discussion can continue. : Interactive storytelling has to be evaluated as a game mechanic, not as a : storytelling tool. This is one of the main points about my argument. : HP will understand the differences between meaningful choices, and non : meaningful ones in video games. At first glance a lot of RTS games have : more choice than Brood War - more units, more maps etc. But when you get : down to it, most of those choices are not meaningful. After all, why build : anything but tanks in Halo wars? All those other choices aren;t meaningful : because they are not effective strategy. Nearly every unit in Brood War : has a place, so you have more meaningful interaction. : Meaningful choices are choices that matter. If your game has 100 guns, but : one is better than all the rest in every situation, then there is very : little meaningful choice. If you present the player with 4 paths, and 3 : lead to dead ends, you again do not have meaningful choice. : The more meaningful choices the video game has, the more complex, : interesting, and fun it is. : Now, the choice in interactive narratives must also be meaningful, since it : is simply another choice from the player by way of mechanics. As such, : these choices must actually matter. If you give your player 2 story paths : to choose from, but they both lead to the same place, then that is not a : meaningful choice. So with interactive fiction, you've got to give the : player interesting choices, and that means CHOICES WHICH ACTUALLY CHANGE : THE NARRATIVE. : Now you should be able to see why interactive storytelling must give up on : the idea of a solid story. If you give your player meaningful choices, YOU : DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WILL CHOSE OR WHAT WILL HAPPEN. This means you cannot : do things like foreshadowing, payoffs, recurring themes or central motifs, : etc. It means you have to give up on the idea of telling YOUR narrative. : You can limit player choice as HP suggests, but then your work has less : meaningful choices, and becomes much less interesting to play. : You HAVE to evaluate this as a game mechanic, since this is the interaction : the player will be partaking in. Just as a fighting game with tons of : ineffective moves and a few good ones is bankrupt mechanically, so is a : choose your own adventure where none of the choices significantly affect : things. : I bring up Deus Ex, because it treats player interaction as a mechanic. It's : an incredible amazing game, and amazing interactive storytelling. BUT IT : IS NOT GOOD STORYTELLING. : The moment you give the player a meaningful choice, you give up your claim as : a storyteller, and if that choice isn't meaningful, you give up your claim : as a good game designer. : I agree with everyone here that it can be REALLY FUN to choose how a story : progresses, and some great experiences can result. All I'm saying is, we : need to start saying WOW WHAT A GOOD GAME rather than WOW WHAT A GOOD : STORY. It's been said that an experience is incomplete until it is shared. That means that when you watch a play, it isn't done until you've told someone about the experience. The story isn't over until you've discussed it with someone. When each player has a unique experience with a game because of the choices made, that doesn't weaken the story and that doesn't cheapen what the developer has done. When a developer creates the conditions for unique stories to arise from multiple playthroughs, that's amazing work on their part. When those players share their unique stories with one another and discuss how their decisions impacted their game, the experience becomes complete. It is a collaberation between the player and the developer, and that's what makes the stories told by videogames unlike those told by any other medium - because they require participation on the part of the player. You may say that if a player is allowed to make meaningful decisions, he will choose the "wrong" ones because he is a player and not the character? I have two responses to that. First of all, when making a game like what we're describing, there can be no "wrong" choices. There can only be choices, and the developer has to account for each possible path the player may take. Second, even in modern games, when I'm playing (and I can't assume I'm the only one who does this), I consider things from my character's perspective. I hate when I'm forced to metagame in Skyrim - when I have to look at the map to locate my objective, because the character who gave me the quest didn't tell me anything about what I'm looking for. I play with objective markers off and I don't fast travel because those things take me out of the experience. I know Mass Effect has been brought up, and it is by no means a perfect example - its flaws are many, and I acknowledge that - but it's the first real step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, the ending pretty much ignores everything up to that point, but getting there, a lot of what you do matters. My wife and I talked for quite a while about why each Shepard chose what she chose - why I saved Garrus' former squad-mate and she let him die, why mine focused on the mission and why hers stuck with Liara for all three games. Ultimately, up to the last ten minutes, our experiences with the game were very different, and we both had different stories to share in completing the experience.

Message Index

Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 2:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Chris101b	6/8/12 3:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	TDSpiral	6/8/12 5:16 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Dagoonite	6/9/12 10:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:26 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	scarab	6/8/12 7:17 a.m.
Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 7:18 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:04 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	scarab	6/8/12 9:31 a.m.
*SPOILS*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:37 a.m.
What a dreadful disappointment *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:06 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:43 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	bluerunner	6/8/12 10:16 a.m.
I took the day off for this sh*t?	Kermit	6/8/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:55 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 11:32 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 12:13 p.m.
Link	scarab	6/8/12 11:09 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Quirel	6/8/12 11:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 11:11 a.m.
LOL *NM*	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
Well then...	Mid7night	6/8/12 9:58 a.m.
Same *NM*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 10:00 a.m.
Re: Yep. *NM* *NM*	Beckx	6/8/12 10:12 a.m.
The more trailers I saw the less I expected	scarab	6/8/12 10:42 a.m.
This is a horrible mindset to take.	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:44 p.m.
Guess I'm waiting for $1 movie night...	davidfuchs	6/8/12 10:21 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Cody Miller	6/8/12 10:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	General Battuta	6/8/12 10:45 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:51 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:52 a.m.
Re: Hideo Kojima says...	Beckx	6/8/12 4:26 p.m.
Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment please	Metalingus627	6/8/12 6:05 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:40 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Beckx	6/14/12 12:20 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/14/12 12:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	munky-058	6/14/12 12:51 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	RC Master	6/14/12 4:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:45 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 12:18 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/15/12 2:20 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 2:41 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/15/12 11:50 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/15/12 12:44 p.m.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. *NM*	Leisandir	6/15/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 8:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:32 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:38 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 4:37 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	mnemesis	6/18/12 5:33 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 5:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 11:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 12:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 10:11 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:22 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 1:41 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 2:18 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 8:47 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 10:59 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 11:55 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 12:53 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 2:10 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 5:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:54 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:59 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/20/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Jillybean	6/19/12 1:39 p.m.
History	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:49 p.m.
Re: History	Jillybean	6/19/12 2:08 p.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 4:18 a.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 5:11 a.m.
Re: History	Miguel Chavez	6/21/12 7:22 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:56 a.m.
Re: History	Leisandir	6/21/12 11:21 a.m.
Thoughts Collected	Cody Miller	6/21/12 1:17 p.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:28 p.m.
(correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:39 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Cody Miller	6/21/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Kermit	6/21/12 5:06 p.m.
Re: (correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 5:19 p.m.
And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	munky-058	6/21/12 6:18 p.m.
Re: And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	General Battuta	6/22/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	Leisandir	6/22/12 8:08 a.m.
Yep. Very this. *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:51 a.m.
I... just... *headdesk* *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 12:07 p.m.
Re: History	DHalo	6/22/12 1:58 p.m.
A++++ Post Would Read Again	Jillybean	6/21/12 2:03 p.m.
Agreed. *NM*	Kermit	6/21/12 5:07 p.m.
What Wu said. I got nothin' else for ya... *NM*	thebruce0	6/19/12 8:48 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 11:20 a.m.
Cody Miller: Video Games CAN tell stories! *NM*	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:23 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	agdtinman	6/18/12 7:46 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Hedgemony	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Man, I was excited to see this on my birthday *NM*	CYBRFRK	6/8/12 10:56 a.m.
I liked it.	BlueNinja	6/8/12 2:15 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:17 p.m.
sorry for the rampart italic tag *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:19 p.m.
rampant ^ *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:20 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT Concur	yakaman	6/9/12 2:27 a.m.
You know	Tex	6/9/12 4:55 a.m.
Re: You know	Hedgemony	6/9/12 6:46 a.m.
Re: You know	Kermit	6/9/12 8:20 a.m.
Re: You know	Hawki	6/9/12 9:12 a.m.
Re: You know	Tex	6/9/12 12:39 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:30 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:33 p.m.
Re: You know	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
:(	Postmortem	6/9/12 1:21 p.m.
Haters gonna hate.	Postmortem	6/9/12 6:17 p.m.
Re: Haters gonna hate.	Kermit	6/9/12 9:55 p.m.
The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 2:39 p.m.
This is what the film needed...	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 3:25 p.m.
Re: This is what the film needed...	Jillybean	6/9/12 4:11 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Tex	6/9/12 5:16 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 5:25 p.m.
Classic reply on reddit	scarab	6/10/12 4:19 a.m.
LOST in Space, rather. *NM*	Ma1agate	6/10/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Hawki	6/9/12 5:39 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 4:57 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Dagoonite	6/10/12 7:52 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 9:46 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:02 a.m.
This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:44 a.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Jillybean	6/14/12 5:10 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:42 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:19 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Miguel Chavez	6/15/12 3:19 p.m.
My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:00 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Hawki	6/9/12 7:21 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:35 p.m.
Nailed it!	Miguel Chavez	6/10/12 1:41 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 10:10 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:07 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 12:33 p.m.
Prometheus = Halo + Lost.	Ma1agate	6/10/12 12:55 p.m.
Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:25 p.m.
Not even reading the discussion	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:26 p.m.
It worked! *NM*	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:33 p.m.
Re: It worked!	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:37 p.m.
Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:38 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:41 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:44 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Louis Wu	6/10/12 4:47 p.m.
Thanks. [he said sheepishly] *NM*	Kermit	6/10/12 6:49 p.m.
Re: Heh	Tex	6/10/12 4:27 p.m.
Re: Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:28 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:25 p.m.
Re: Heh	scarab	6/11/12 8:24 a.m.
BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Postmortem	6/11/12 1:13 p.m.
Share? *NM*	davidfuchs	6/11/12 1:40 p.m.
What's a battle? What's a diorama?	PyroSporker16	6/11/12 1:45 p.m.
Re: BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Subtank	6/11/12 1:58 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:31 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:54 p.m.
Just saw it	Archilen	6/20/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Just saw it	Miguel Chavez	6/20/12 8:43 a.m.
Re: omg haloooooooo	Revenant1988	6/20/12 12:38 p.m.
Tell that author to use his inside type.	bryan newman	6/20/12 4:06 p.m.
Yeah, The Two Towers sucked...	munky-058	6/20/12 6:56 p.m.