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Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea
Posted By: Cody Miller	Date: 6/20/12 10:59 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea (Kermit) : Can't a game work the same way? Within this broader and looser framework, why : can't player choice be accounted for? I'm not saying it's easy to pull : off, or not extremely difficult to pull off well, but I refuse to be so : doctrinaire about what is possible. I can foresee where something like an : AI works not just on moving NPCs around, but works on the thematic level, : too. Accounting for player choices, different events can be triggered that : are a response to the kinds of choices the player has made, and, in this : way, the choices of the player have helped to make one particular theme : predominant. It's not that everything that has happened no longer counts, : it's that everything that has happened now means something different than : it may have meant before. It requires, from game developers, a kind of : anticipatory collaboration with players to write the narrative. I grant : that for the creators, this is akin to playing 3-D chess, but for me, the : narrative possibilities of gaming are what makes gaming an exciting art : form. Yes, and there are games like this (Deus Ex). The issue is that it becomes the player's story, not the storyteller's. You cannot have it both ways. The more you let the player interact and effect the story, the more you give up your right over claim to the narrative. What you just described would be a very good game indeed, but not one someone could praise for storytelling. : I agree with you on many of your rules, truly. People learning the : storytelling craft need to learn these rules and internalize them, but you : reach a point where you intuitively know why they're there and you know : when you can ignore them. I remember a creative writing teaching telling : us to never write a story that is actually a dream. Then I read Delmore : Schwartz' "In Dreams Begin Responsibilities." Wow. : I don't think gaming has matured or stopped becoming what it can be. As you : said the other day, sometimes "there are no rules." I find your : views of what gaming can be limiting. Gaming is incredibly mature. It's been around for how many years now? The first video game came out in 1962. That means gaming is 50 years old. 50 years after the birth of film you had tons of films that are wonderful and stunning works of art. People are asking where gaming's Citizen Kane is? That should tell you something. If anything the maturation in gaming has slowed. We are forgoing improving mechanics over graphics, design and story. Deus Ex was such a brilliant game, and I am so shocked at how Human Revolution screwed it up. This is unfathomable to me. You are making the sequel to one of the best games ever made - all you have to do is keep everything that works and fix what didn't (Deus Ex had a lot of flaws). It seems so easy, but modern game design once again ruins everything, and in my opinion Human Revolution is just another modern FPS. To top it off, Deus Ex was an amazing, perhaps the BEST example of allowing a player to dictate the story through his actions. If games are still maturing, its sequel should do that BETTER. But it doesn't. It totally fucks it up.

Message Index

Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 2:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Chris101b	6/8/12 3:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	TDSpiral	6/8/12 5:16 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Dagoonite	6/9/12 10:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:26 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	scarab	6/8/12 7:17 a.m.
Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 7:18 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:04 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	scarab	6/8/12 9:31 a.m.
*SPOILS*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:37 a.m.
What a dreadful disappointment *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:06 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:43 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	bluerunner	6/8/12 10:16 a.m.
I took the day off for this sh*t?	Kermit	6/8/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:55 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 11:32 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 12:13 p.m.
Link	scarab	6/8/12 11:09 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Quirel	6/8/12 11:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 11:11 a.m.
LOL *NM*	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
Well then...	Mid7night	6/8/12 9:58 a.m.
Same *NM*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 10:00 a.m.
Re: Yep. *NM* *NM*	Beckx	6/8/12 10:12 a.m.
The more trailers I saw the less I expected	scarab	6/8/12 10:42 a.m.
This is a horrible mindset to take.	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:44 p.m.
Guess I'm waiting for $1 movie night...	davidfuchs	6/8/12 10:21 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Cody Miller	6/8/12 10:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	General Battuta	6/8/12 10:45 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:51 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:52 a.m.
Re: Hideo Kojima says...	Beckx	6/8/12 4:26 p.m.
Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment please	Metalingus627	6/8/12 6:05 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:40 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Beckx	6/14/12 12:20 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/14/12 12:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	munky-058	6/14/12 12:51 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	RC Master	6/14/12 4:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:45 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 12:18 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/15/12 2:20 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 2:41 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/15/12 11:50 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/15/12 12:44 p.m.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. *NM*	Leisandir	6/15/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 8:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:32 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:38 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 4:37 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	mnemesis	6/18/12 5:33 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 5:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 11:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 12:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 10:11 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:22 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 1:41 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 2:18 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 8:47 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 10:59 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 11:55 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 12:53 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 2:10 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 5:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:54 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:59 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/20/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Jillybean	6/19/12 1:39 p.m.
History	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:49 p.m.
Re: History	Jillybean	6/19/12 2:08 p.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 4:18 a.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 5:11 a.m.
Re: History	Miguel Chavez	6/21/12 7:22 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:56 a.m.
Re: History	Leisandir	6/21/12 11:21 a.m.
Thoughts Collected	Cody Miller	6/21/12 1:17 p.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:28 p.m.
(correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:39 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Cody Miller	6/21/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Kermit	6/21/12 5:06 p.m.
Re: (correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 5:19 p.m.
And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	munky-058	6/21/12 6:18 p.m.
Re: And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	General Battuta	6/22/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	Leisandir	6/22/12 8:08 a.m.
Yep. Very this. *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:51 a.m.
I... just... *headdesk* *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 12:07 p.m.
Re: History	DHalo	6/22/12 1:58 p.m.
A++++ Post Would Read Again	Jillybean	6/21/12 2:03 p.m.
Agreed. *NM*	Kermit	6/21/12 5:07 p.m.
What Wu said. I got nothin' else for ya... *NM*	thebruce0	6/19/12 8:48 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 11:20 a.m.
Cody Miller: Video Games CAN tell stories! *NM*	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:23 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	agdtinman	6/18/12 7:46 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Hedgemony	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Man, I was excited to see this on my birthday *NM*	CYBRFRK	6/8/12 10:56 a.m.
I liked it.	BlueNinja	6/8/12 2:15 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:17 p.m.
sorry for the rampart italic tag *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:19 p.m.
rampant ^ *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:20 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT Concur	yakaman	6/9/12 2:27 a.m.
You know	Tex	6/9/12 4:55 a.m.
Re: You know	Hedgemony	6/9/12 6:46 a.m.
Re: You know	Kermit	6/9/12 8:20 a.m.
Re: You know	Hawki	6/9/12 9:12 a.m.
Re: You know	Tex	6/9/12 12:39 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:30 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:33 p.m.
Re: You know	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
:(	Postmortem	6/9/12 1:21 p.m.
Haters gonna hate.	Postmortem	6/9/12 6:17 p.m.
Re: Haters gonna hate.	Kermit	6/9/12 9:55 p.m.
The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 2:39 p.m.
This is what the film needed...	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 3:25 p.m.
Re: This is what the film needed...	Jillybean	6/9/12 4:11 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Tex	6/9/12 5:16 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 5:25 p.m.
Classic reply on reddit	scarab	6/10/12 4:19 a.m.
LOST in Space, rather. *NM*	Ma1agate	6/10/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Hawki	6/9/12 5:39 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 4:57 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Dagoonite	6/10/12 7:52 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 9:46 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:02 a.m.
This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:44 a.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Jillybean	6/14/12 5:10 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:42 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:19 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Miguel Chavez	6/15/12 3:19 p.m.
My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:00 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Hawki	6/9/12 7:21 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:35 p.m.
Nailed it!	Miguel Chavez	6/10/12 1:41 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 10:10 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:07 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 12:33 p.m.
Prometheus = Halo + Lost.	Ma1agate	6/10/12 12:55 p.m.
Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:25 p.m.
Not even reading the discussion	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:26 p.m.
It worked! *NM*	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:33 p.m.
Re: It worked!	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:37 p.m.
Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:38 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:41 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:44 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Louis Wu	6/10/12 4:47 p.m.
Thanks. [he said sheepishly] *NM*	Kermit	6/10/12 6:49 p.m.
Re: Heh	Tex	6/10/12 4:27 p.m.
Re: Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:28 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:25 p.m.
Re: Heh	scarab	6/11/12 8:24 a.m.
BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Postmortem	6/11/12 1:13 p.m.
Share? *NM*	davidfuchs	6/11/12 1:40 p.m.
What's a battle? What's a diorama?	PyroSporker16	6/11/12 1:45 p.m.
Re: BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Subtank	6/11/12 1:58 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:31 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:54 p.m.
Just saw it	Archilen	6/20/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Just saw it	Miguel Chavez	6/20/12 8:43 a.m.
Re: omg haloooooooo	Revenant1988	6/20/12 12:38 p.m.
Tell that author to use his inside type.	bryan newman	6/20/12 4:06 p.m.
Yeah, The Two Towers sucked...	munky-058	6/20/12 6:56 p.m.