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Thoughts Collected
Posted By: Cody MillerDate: 6/21/12 1:17 p.m.

In Response To: Re: History (Leisandir)


I will collect my arguments here so the discussion can continue.

Interactive storytelling has to be evaluated as a game mechanic, not as a storytelling tool. This is one of the main points about my argument.

HP will understand the differences between meaningful choices, and non meaningful ones in video games. At first glance a lot of RTS games have more choice than Brood War - more units, more maps etc. But when you get down to it, most of those choices are not meaningful. After all, why build anything but tanks in Halo wars? All those other choices aren;t meaningful because they are not effective strategy. Nearly every unit in Brood War has a place, so you have more meaningful interaction.

Meaningful choices are choices that matter. If your game has 100 guns, but one is better than all the rest in every situation, then there is very little meaningful choice. If you present the player with 4 paths, and 3 lead to dead ends, you again do not have meaningful choice.

The more meaningful choices the video game has, the more complex, interesting, and fun it is.

Now, the choice in interactive narratives must also be meaningful, since it is simply another choice from the player by way of mechanics. As such, these choices must actually matter. If you give your player 2 story paths to choose from, but they both lead to the same place, then that is not a meaningful choice. So with interactive fiction, you've got to give the player interesting choices, and that means CHOICES WHICH ACTUALLY CHANGE THE NARRATIVE.

Now you should be able to see why interactive storytelling must give up on the idea of a solid story. If you give your player meaningful choices, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WILL CHOSE OR WHAT WILL HAPPEN. This means you cannot do things like foreshadowing, payoffs, recurring themes or central motifs, etc. It means you have to give up on the idea of telling YOUR narrative.

You can limit player choice as HP suggests, but then your work has less meaningful choices, and becomes much less interesting to play.

You HAVE to evaluate this as a game mechanic, since this is the interaction the player will be partaking in. Just as a fighting game with tons of ineffective moves and a few good ones is bankrupt mechanically, so is a choose your own adventure where none of the choices significantly affect things.

I bring up Deus Ex, because it treats player interaction as a mechanic. It's an incredible amazing game, and amazing interactive storytelling. BUT IT IS NOT GOOD STORYTELLING.

The moment you give the player a meaningful choice, you give up your claim as a storyteller, and if that choice isn't meaningful, you give up your claim as a good game designer.

I agree with everyone here that it can be REALLY FUN to choose how a story progresses, and some great experiences can result. All I'm saying is, we need to start saying WOW WHAT A GOOD GAME rather than WOW WHAT A GOOD STORY.


Message Index




Replies:

Prometheus *OT*Miguel Chavez 6/8/12 2:08 a.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*Chris101b 6/8/12 3:18 a.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*TDSpiral 6/8/12 5:16 a.m.
           Re: Prometheus *OT*Dagoonite 6/9/12 10:38 a.m.
                 Re: Prometheus *OT*Miguel Chavez 6/9/12 1:26 p.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*scarab 6/8/12 7:17 a.m.
     Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*JDQuackers 6/8/12 7:18 a.m.
           Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*General Battuta 6/8/12 9:04 a.m.
           Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*scarab 6/8/12 9:31 a.m.
           *SPOILS*Miguel Chavez 6/8/12 10:37 a.m.
     What a dreadful disappointment *SP*General Battuta 6/8/12 9:06 a.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*Beckx 6/8/12 9:33 a.m.
           Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*General Battuta 6/8/12 9:38 a.m.
                 Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*Beckx 6/8/12 9:43 a.m.
                       Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*bluerunner 6/8/12 10:16 a.m.
                 I took the day off for this sh*t?Kermit 6/8/12 10:18 a.m.
                 Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*scarab 6/8/12 10:29 a.m.
                       Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*Miguel Chavez 6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
                             Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*scarab 6/8/12 10:55 a.m.
                                   Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*Miguel Chavez 6/8/12 11:32 a.m.
                                         Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*scarab 6/8/12 12:13 p.m.
                             Linkscarab 6/8/12 11:09 a.m.
                       Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*Quirel 6/8/12 11:08 a.m.
                             Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*scarab 6/8/12 11:11 a.m.
           LOL *NM*SonofMacPhisto 6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
     Well then...Mid7night 6/8/12 9:58 a.m.
           Same *NM*JDQuackers 6/8/12 10:00 a.m.
           Re: Yep. *NM* *NM*Beckx 6/8/12 10:12 a.m.
           The more trailers I saw the less I expectedscarab 6/8/12 10:42 a.m.
           This is a horrible mindset to take.Postmortem 6/9/12 7:44 p.m.
     Guess I'm waiting for $1 movie night...davidfuchs 6/8/12 10:21 a.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*Cody Miller 6/8/12 10:33 a.m.
           Re: Prometheus *OT*General Battuta 6/8/12 10:45 a.m.
           Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*scarab 6/8/12 10:51 a.m.
                 Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*Miguel Chavez 6/8/12 10:52 a.m.
           Re: Hideo Kojima says...Beckx 6/8/12 4:26 p.m.
           Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaseMetalingus627 6/8/12 6:05 p.m.
                 Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/14/12 11:40 a.m.
                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaBeckx 6/14/12 12:20 p.m.
                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleathebruce0 6/14/12 12:57 p.m.
                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleamunky-058 6/14/12 12:51 p.m.
                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaRC Master 6/14/12 4:01 p.m.
                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/14/12 7:12 p.m.
                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleahunt3r 6/14/12 6:45 p.m.
                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaHawaiian Pig 6/15/12 12:18 a.m.
                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleauberfoop 6/15/12 2:20 a.m.
                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaQuantum 6/15/12 2:41 a.m.
                                   Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaQuantum 6/15/12 4:03 a.m.
                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/15/12 11:50 a.m.
                                   Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaKermit 6/15/12 12:44 p.m.
                                         Only a Sith deals in absolutes. *NM*Leisandir 6/15/12 1:14 p.m.
                                   Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaHawaiian Pig 6/15/12 8:50 p.m.
                                         Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/18/12 12:32 p.m.
                                               Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/18/12 12:38 p.m.
                                                     Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleathebruce0 6/18/12 1:27 p.m.
                                                           Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/18/12 4:37 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleamnemesis 6/18/12 5:33 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/18/12 5:57 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleathebruce0 6/18/12 11:01 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/19/12 12:03 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaLouis Wu 6/19/12 7:28 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/19/12 10:11 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaLouis Wu 6/19/12 10:16 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/19/12 1:22 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaStryfe Bringer 6/19/12 1:41 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/19/12 1:50 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaStryfe Bringer 6/19/12 2:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaKermit 6/20/12 8:47 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/20/12 10:59 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaKermit 6/20/12 11:55 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/20/12 12:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaKermit 6/20/12 2:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/20/12 5:12 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaKermit 6/20/12 7:54 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaKermit 6/20/12 7:59 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleauberfoop 6/20/12 8:14 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaJillybean 6/19/12 1:39 p.m.
                                                                                                           HistoryCody Miller 6/19/12 1:49 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: HistoryJillybean 6/19/12 2:08 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: HistoryHawaiian Pig 6/21/12 4:18 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: HistoryHawaiian Pig 6/21/12 5:11 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: HistoryMiguel Chavez 6/21/12 7:22 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: HistoryCody Miller 6/21/12 10:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: HistoryLeisandir 6/21/12 11:21 a.m.
                                                                                                                                         Thoughts CollectedCody Miller 6/21/12 1:17 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Thoughts Collectedthebruce0 6/21/12 2:28 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     (correction)thebruce0 6/21/12 2:39 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: (correction)Cody Miller 6/21/12 3:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: (correction)Kermit 6/21/12 5:06 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: (correction)thebruce0 6/21/12 5:19 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...munky-058 6/21/12 6:18 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...General Battuta 6/22/12 9:30 a.m.
                                                                                                                                               Re: Thoughts CollectedLeisandir 6/22/12 8:08 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Yep. Very this. *NM*thebruce0 6/21/12 8:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: HistoryCody Miller 6/21/12 10:51 a.m.
                                                                                                                             I... just... *headdesk* *NM*thebruce0 6/21/12 12:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: HistoryDHalo 6/22/12 1:58 p.m.
                                                                                                                       A++++ Post Would Read AgainJillybean 6/21/12 2:03 p.m.
                                                                                                                             Agreed. *NM*Kermit 6/21/12 5:07 p.m.
                                                                                         What Wu said. I got nothin' else for ya... *NM*thebruce0 6/19/12 8:48 a.m.
                                   Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleathebruce0 6/18/12 9:38 a.m.
                                         Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaCody Miller 6/18/12 11:20 a.m.
                                               Cody Miller: Video Games CAN tell stories! *NM*thebruce0 6/18/12 1:23 p.m.
                       Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment pleaagdtinman 6/18/12 7:46 p.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*Hedgemony 6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
     Man, I was excited to see this on my birthday *NM*CYBRFRK 6/8/12 10:56 a.m.
     I liked it.BlueNinja 6/8/12 2:15 p.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*Kermit 6/8/12 9:17 p.m.
           sorry for the rampart italic tag *NM*Kermit 6/8/12 9:19 p.m.
                 rampant ^ *NM*Kermit 6/8/12 9:20 p.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT Concuryakaman 6/9/12 2:27 a.m.
     You knowTex 6/9/12 4:55 a.m.
           Re: You knowHedgemony 6/9/12 6:46 a.m.
                 Re: You knowKermit 6/9/12 8:20 a.m.
                       Re: You knowHawki 6/9/12 9:12 a.m.
                             Re: You knowTex 6/9/12 12:39 p.m.
                       Re: You knowMiguel Chavez 6/9/12 1:30 p.m.
           Re: You knowMiguel Chavez 6/9/12 1:33 p.m.
           Re: You knowSonofMacPhisto 6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
     :(Postmortem 6/9/12 1:21 p.m.
           Haters gonna hate.Postmortem 6/9/12 6:17 p.m.
                 Re: Haters gonna hate.Kermit 6/9/12 9:55 p.m.
     The theory that makes me love it:Jillybean 6/9/12 2:39 p.m.
           This is what the film needed...Miguel Chavez 6/9/12 3:25 p.m.
                 Re: This is what the film needed...Jillybean 6/9/12 4:11 p.m.
           Re: The theory that makes me love it:Tex 6/9/12 5:16 p.m.
                 Re: The theory that makes me love it:Jillybean 6/9/12 5:25 p.m.
                 Classic reply on redditscarab 6/10/12 4:19 a.m.
                 LOST in Space, rather. *NM*Ma1agate 6/10/12 1:14 p.m.
           Re: The theory that makes me love it:Hawki 6/9/12 5:39 p.m.
                 Re: The theory that makes me love it:scarab 6/10/12 4:57 a.m.
                       Re: The theory that makes me love it:Dagoonite 6/10/12 7:52 a.m.
                             Re: The theory that makes me love it:scarab 6/10/12 9:46 a.m.
                 Re: The theory that makes me love it:Jillybean 6/10/12 11:02 a.m.
           This will throw you through the wallCody Miller 6/14/12 11:44 a.m.
                 Re: This will throw you through the wallJillybean 6/14/12 5:10 p.m.
                       Re: This will throw you through the wallhunt3r 6/14/12 6:42 p.m.
                             Re: This will throw you through the wallCody Miller 6/14/12 7:19 p.m.
                                   Re: This will throw you through the wallhunt3r 6/14/12 8:12 p.m.
                             Re: This will throw you through the wallMiguel Chavez 6/15/12 3:19 p.m.
     My thoughtsPostmortem 6/9/12 7:00 p.m.
           Re: My thoughtsHawki 6/9/12 7:21 p.m.
                 Re: My thoughtsPostmortem 6/9/12 7:35 p.m.
                 Nailed it!Miguel Chavez 6/10/12 1:41 a.m.
                       Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.yakaman 6/10/12 10:10 a.m.
                             Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.Jillybean 6/10/12 11:07 a.m.
                                   Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.yakaman 6/10/12 12:33 p.m.
                                         Prometheus = Halo + Lost.Ma1agate 6/10/12 12:55 p.m.
     HehJillybean 6/10/12 4:25 p.m.
           Not even reading the discussionNikko B201 6/10/12 4:26 p.m.
                 It worked! *NM*Nikko B201 6/10/12 4:33 p.m.
                       Re: It worked!Jillybean 6/10/12 4:37 p.m.
                             Admins? What admins?Nikko B201 6/10/12 4:38 p.m.
                                   Re: Admins? What admins?Jillybean 6/10/12 4:39 p.m.
                                         Re: Admins? What admins?Nikko B201 6/10/12 4:41 p.m.
                                               Re: Admins? What admins?Jillybean 6/10/12 4:44 p.m.
                                                     Re: Admins? What admins?Louis Wu 6/10/12 4:47 p.m.
                                                           Thanks. [he said sheepishly] *NM*Kermit 6/10/12 6:49 p.m.
           Re: HehTex 6/10/12 4:27 p.m.
                 Re: HehJillybean 6/10/12 4:28 p.m.
           Re: HehCody Miller 6/10/12 8:12 p.m.
                 Re: HehCody Miller 6/10/12 8:25 p.m.
                 Re: Hehscarab 6/11/12 8:24 a.m.
     BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?Postmortem 6/11/12 1:13 p.m.
           Share? *NM*davidfuchs 6/11/12 1:40 p.m.
           What's a battle? What's a diorama?PyroSporker16 6/11/12 1:45 p.m.
           Re: BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?Subtank 6/11/12 1:58 p.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*DrDoctor 6/14/12 4:31 p.m.
     Re: Prometheus *OT*DrDoctor 6/14/12 4:54 p.m.
     Just saw itArchilen 6/20/12 8:36 a.m.
           Re: Just saw itMiguel Chavez 6/20/12 8:43 a.m.
                 Re: omg halooooooooRevenant1988 6/20/12 12:38 p.m.
                 Tell that author to use his inside type.bryan newman 6/20/12 4:06 p.m.
                 Yeah, The Two Towers sucked...munky-058 6/20/12 6:56 p.m.



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