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Re: Thoughts Collected
Posted By: thebruce0 <g.may@thebruce.net>	Date: 6/21/12 2:28 p.m.
In Response To: Thoughts Collected (Cody Miller) Once again, your whole premise relies solely on the limited definition of STORYTELLING as a single, linear, static narrative written by the author. If you don't have that, you say it's not "storytelling". Yet cryptically you still say it's "interactive storytelling". Semantics. STORYTELLING can be interactive or not. What you are describing is non-interactive storytelling. Games tell stories. They are interactive stories. You don't seem to want the creators of those games and/or interactive stories to claim the label "storytellers" because you say the players now create the story, and it's out of the hands of the designers. They are storytellers. They tell interactive stories (those words aren't mutually exclusive; one is a subset of the other). The designers form the world and its rules in which a story can be formed by the player, to whatever degree (relatively linear or completely open). They provide boundaries in which choices (meaningful or not) can be made, and provide anywhere from a single storyline progression (with "non-meaningful choices" which don't alter the ultimate narrative) to an unlimited set of choices that form a unique story per any individual depending on the choices they make (which, I don't think anyone will disagree, is from the designer standpoint far from "telling a story", but more accurately providing a dynamic world in which a unique story/experience can be formed by the player). There's this grey area between the two that you entirely dismiss, by definition at least - even if you do agree that people can certainly enjoy whatever experience they get. But, "IT'S NOT STORYTELLING" is a statement that will get you nowhere, except long drawn out debates like in this forum. Games that allow a player to interact with the story do not and by definition cannot offer linear non-interactive narrative stories as written by a storyteller. Of course! Games that allow a player to interact with the story DO offer an experience that is, to whatever degree, designed to progress either A) through a series of meaningful choices that alter the story *as a whole* (not necessarily the end point) as pre-determined by the storyteller, or B) through a wide set of choices for which the designer can't possibly predict every outcome, yet purposely designed it so the player becomes the storyteller for their own story, within the framework set up by the designer for to provide the experience they envision. Perhaps for your purposes, you'd prefer to refer to game designers as "story providers" instead of "storytellers". But a story is a story is a story. However you get from start to finish, and whoever "tells" it - * whether I make those meaningful choices as the storyteller for a completely personalized narrative (eg, an open-world RPG) -[not storytelling], or * I choose from predefined meaningful choices that lead through any of a series of predetermined paths for a personalized yet non-unique narrative as written by a storyteller (eg, choose-your-own-adventure, or a generic FPS) -[interactive storytelling], or * the storyteller makes every choice for me (eg, a novel or film) -[non-interactive storytelling/narrative], --- The result is still a STORY. The difference is who is the STORYTELLER. That 2nd point above is the clincher for you - you say those game designers are not storytellers. The majority of people here disagree; all the story paths a player can take have been written to tell a story (whether with one or multiple possible outcomes). But yes, a player-created/dynamic/interactive story is very different from an author-created/linear/non-interactive story. A game can't tell the latter. A game can certainly tell the former.

http://halo.thebruce.net

Message Index

Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 2:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Chris101b	6/8/12 3:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	TDSpiral	6/8/12 5:16 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Dagoonite	6/9/12 10:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:26 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	scarab	6/8/12 7:17 a.m.
Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 7:18 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:04 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	scarab	6/8/12 9:31 a.m.
*SPOILS*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:37 a.m.
What a dreadful disappointment *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:06 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:43 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	bluerunner	6/8/12 10:16 a.m.
I took the day off for this sh*t?	Kermit	6/8/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:55 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 11:32 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 12:13 p.m.
Link	scarab	6/8/12 11:09 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Quirel	6/8/12 11:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 11:11 a.m.
LOL *NM*	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
Well then...	Mid7night	6/8/12 9:58 a.m.
Same *NM*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 10:00 a.m.
Re: Yep. *NM* *NM*	Beckx	6/8/12 10:12 a.m.
The more trailers I saw the less I expected	scarab	6/8/12 10:42 a.m.
This is a horrible mindset to take.	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:44 p.m.
Guess I'm waiting for $1 movie night...	davidfuchs	6/8/12 10:21 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Cody Miller	6/8/12 10:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	General Battuta	6/8/12 10:45 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:51 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:52 a.m.
Re: Hideo Kojima says...	Beckx	6/8/12 4:26 p.m.
Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment please	Metalingus627	6/8/12 6:05 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:40 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Beckx	6/14/12 12:20 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/14/12 12:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	munky-058	6/14/12 12:51 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	RC Master	6/14/12 4:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:45 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 12:18 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/15/12 2:20 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 2:41 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/15/12 11:50 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/15/12 12:44 p.m.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. *NM*	Leisandir	6/15/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 8:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:32 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:38 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 4:37 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	mnemesis	6/18/12 5:33 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 5:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 11:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 12:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 10:11 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:22 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 1:41 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 2:18 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 8:47 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 10:59 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 11:55 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 12:53 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 2:10 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 5:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:54 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:59 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/20/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Jillybean	6/19/12 1:39 p.m.
History	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:49 p.m.
Re: History	Jillybean	6/19/12 2:08 p.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 4:18 a.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 5:11 a.m.
Re: History	Miguel Chavez	6/21/12 7:22 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:56 a.m.
Re: History	Leisandir	6/21/12 11:21 a.m.
Thoughts Collected	Cody Miller	6/21/12 1:17 p.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:28 p.m.
(correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:39 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Cody Miller	6/21/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Kermit	6/21/12 5:06 p.m.
Re: (correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 5:19 p.m.
And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	munky-058	6/21/12 6:18 p.m.
Re: And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	General Battuta	6/22/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	Leisandir	6/22/12 8:08 a.m.
Yep. Very this. *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:51 a.m.
I... just... *headdesk* *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 12:07 p.m.
Re: History	DHalo	6/22/12 1:58 p.m.
A++++ Post Would Read Again	Jillybean	6/21/12 2:03 p.m.
Agreed. *NM*	Kermit	6/21/12 5:07 p.m.
What Wu said. I got nothin' else for ya... *NM*	thebruce0	6/19/12 8:48 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 11:20 a.m.
Cody Miller: Video Games CAN tell stories! *NM*	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:23 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	agdtinman	6/18/12 7:46 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Hedgemony	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Man, I was excited to see this on my birthday *NM*	CYBRFRK	6/8/12 10:56 a.m.
I liked it.	BlueNinja	6/8/12 2:15 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:17 p.m.
sorry for the rampart italic tag *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:19 p.m.
rampant ^ *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:20 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT Concur	yakaman	6/9/12 2:27 a.m.
You know	Tex	6/9/12 4:55 a.m.
Re: You know	Hedgemony	6/9/12 6:46 a.m.
Re: You know	Kermit	6/9/12 8:20 a.m.
Re: You know	Hawki	6/9/12 9:12 a.m.
Re: You know	Tex	6/9/12 12:39 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:30 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:33 p.m.
Re: You know	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
:(	Postmortem	6/9/12 1:21 p.m.
Haters gonna hate.	Postmortem	6/9/12 6:17 p.m.
Re: Haters gonna hate.	Kermit	6/9/12 9:55 p.m.
The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 2:39 p.m.
This is what the film needed...	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 3:25 p.m.
Re: This is what the film needed...	Jillybean	6/9/12 4:11 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Tex	6/9/12 5:16 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 5:25 p.m.
Classic reply on reddit	scarab	6/10/12 4:19 a.m.
LOST in Space, rather. *NM*	Ma1agate	6/10/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Hawki	6/9/12 5:39 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 4:57 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Dagoonite	6/10/12 7:52 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 9:46 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:02 a.m.
This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:44 a.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Jillybean	6/14/12 5:10 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:42 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:19 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Miguel Chavez	6/15/12 3:19 p.m.
My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:00 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Hawki	6/9/12 7:21 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:35 p.m.
Nailed it!	Miguel Chavez	6/10/12 1:41 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 10:10 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:07 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 12:33 p.m.
Prometheus = Halo + Lost.	Ma1agate	6/10/12 12:55 p.m.
Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:25 p.m.
Not even reading the discussion	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:26 p.m.
It worked! *NM*	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:33 p.m.
Re: It worked!	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:37 p.m.
Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:38 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:41 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:44 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Louis Wu	6/10/12 4:47 p.m.
Thanks. [he said sheepishly] *NM*	Kermit	6/10/12 6:49 p.m.
Re: Heh	Tex	6/10/12 4:27 p.m.
Re: Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:28 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:25 p.m.
Re: Heh	scarab	6/11/12 8:24 a.m.
BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Postmortem	6/11/12 1:13 p.m.
Share? *NM*	davidfuchs	6/11/12 1:40 p.m.
What's a battle? What's a diorama?	PyroSporker16	6/11/12 1:45 p.m.
Re: BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Subtank	6/11/12 1:58 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:31 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:54 p.m.
Just saw it	Archilen	6/20/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Just saw it	Miguel Chavez	6/20/12 8:43 a.m.
Re: omg haloooooooo	Revenant1988	6/20/12 12:38 p.m.
Tell that author to use his inside type.	bryan newman	6/20/12 4:06 p.m.
Yeah, The Two Towers sucked...	munky-058	6/20/12 6:56 p.m.