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Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea
Posted By: Kermit <kermi7@mac.com>	Date: 6/20/12 8:47 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea (Cody Miller) : I would simply offer that they are bad storytellers. : If they cannot commit to and ending they like, then they simply don't have a : grasp of their stories. : If you are referring to director's cuts and the like, then it should be : obvious the director does not prefer the theatrical ending , and as a : storyteller would rather have Deckard be a replicant. Yes, but some find it more satisfying to believe that he is not. And at least Ridley Scott doesn't try to pull a Lucas and not let people have that. I understand, from a writer's standpoint, your insistence on the primacy of the author's intent, and that every telling detail counts toward an inevitable and intended conclusion. Yet, a game does not have to be a poem, or a minimalist Raymond Carver story, where every syllable can and often does carry the weight of the whole's meaning. A novel can be what Henry James called a "loose baggy monster," one in which a variety of themes may be explored, and every detail may not serve to dramatize but to provide verisimilitude, to present a world, to recreate the flavor of life. Can't a game work the same way? Within this broader and looser framework, why can't player choice be accounted for? I'm not saying it's easy to pull off, or not extremely difficult to pull off well, but I refuse to be so doctrinaire about what is possible. I can foresee where something like an AI works not just on moving NPCs around, but works on the thematic level, too. Accounting for player choices, different events can be triggered that are a response to the kinds of choices the player has made, and, in this way, the choices of the player have helped to make one particular theme predominant. It's not that everything that has happened no longer counts, it's that everything that has happened now means something different than it may have meant before. It requires, from game developers, a kind of anticipatory collaboration with players to write the narrative. I grant that for the creators, this is akin to playing 3-D chess, but for me, the narrative possibilities of gaming are what makes gaming an exciting art form. I agree with you on many of your rules, truly. People learning the storytelling craft need to learn these rules and internalize them, but you reach a point where you intuitively know why they're there and you know when you can ignore them. I remember a creative writing teaching telling us to never write a story that is actually a dream. Then I read Delmore Schwartz' "In Dreams Begin Responsibilities." Wow. I don't think gaming has matured or stopped becoming what it can be. As you said the other day, sometimes "there are no rules." I find your views of what gaming can be limiting.

Message Index

Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 2:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Chris101b	6/8/12 3:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	TDSpiral	6/8/12 5:16 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Dagoonite	6/9/12 10:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:26 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	scarab	6/8/12 7:17 a.m.
Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 7:18 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:04 a.m.
Re: Just tell me one thing *Asking 4 Spoils*	scarab	6/8/12 9:31 a.m.
*SPOILS*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:37 a.m.
What a dreadful disappointment *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:06 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	General Battuta	6/8/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Beckx	6/8/12 9:43 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	bluerunner	6/8/12 10:16 a.m.
I took the day off for this sh*t?	Kermit	6/8/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:55 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 11:32 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 12:13 p.m.
Link	scarab	6/8/12 11:09 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Quirel	6/8/12 11:08 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 11:11 a.m.
LOL *NM*	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
Well then...	Mid7night	6/8/12 9:58 a.m.
Same *NM*	JDQuackers	6/8/12 10:00 a.m.
Re: Yep. *NM* *NM*	Beckx	6/8/12 10:12 a.m.
The more trailers I saw the less I expected	scarab	6/8/12 10:42 a.m.
This is a horrible mindset to take.	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:44 p.m.
Guess I'm waiting for $1 movie night...	davidfuchs	6/8/12 10:21 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Cody Miller	6/8/12 10:33 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	General Battuta	6/8/12 10:45 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	scarab	6/8/12 10:51 a.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT* *SP*	Miguel Chavez	6/8/12 10:52 a.m.
Re: Hideo Kojima says...	Beckx	6/8/12 4:26 p.m.
Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment please	Metalingus627	6/8/12 6:05 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:40 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Beckx	6/14/12 12:20 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/14/12 12:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	munky-058	6/14/12 12:51 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	RC Master	6/14/12 4:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:45 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 12:18 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/15/12 2:20 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 2:41 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Quantum	6/15/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/15/12 11:50 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/15/12 12:44 p.m.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. *NM*	Leisandir	6/15/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Hawaiian Pig	6/15/12 8:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:32 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 12:38 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 4:37 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	mnemesis	6/18/12 5:33 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 5:57 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 11:01 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 12:03 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 10:11 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Louis Wu	6/19/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:22 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 1:41 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:50 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Stryfe Bringer	6/19/12 2:18 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 8:47 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 10:59 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 11:55 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 12:53 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 2:10 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/20/12 5:12 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:54 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Kermit	6/20/12 7:59 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	uberfoop	6/20/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Jillybean	6/19/12 1:39 p.m.
History	Cody Miller	6/19/12 1:49 p.m.
Re: History	Jillybean	6/19/12 2:08 p.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 4:18 a.m.
Re: History	Hawaiian Pig	6/21/12 5:11 a.m.
Re: History	Miguel Chavez	6/21/12 7:22 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:56 a.m.
Re: History	Leisandir	6/21/12 11:21 a.m.
Thoughts Collected	Cody Miller	6/21/12 1:17 p.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:28 p.m.
(correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 2:39 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Cody Miller	6/21/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: (correction)	Kermit	6/21/12 5:06 p.m.
Re: (correction)	thebruce0	6/21/12 5:19 p.m.
And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	munky-058	6/21/12 6:18 p.m.
Re: And then Mass Effect proved Cody wrong...	General Battuta	6/22/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Thoughts Collected	Leisandir	6/22/12 8:08 a.m.
Yep. Very this. *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: History	Cody Miller	6/21/12 10:51 a.m.
I... just... *headdesk* *NM*	thebruce0	6/21/12 12:07 p.m.
Re: History	DHalo	6/22/12 1:58 p.m.
A++++ Post Would Read Again	Jillybean	6/21/12 2:03 p.m.
Agreed. *NM*	Kermit	6/21/12 5:07 p.m.
What Wu said. I got nothin' else for ya... *NM*	thebruce0	6/19/12 8:48 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	thebruce0	6/18/12 9:38 a.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	Cody Miller	6/18/12 11:20 a.m.
Cody Miller: Video Games CAN tell stories! *NM*	thebruce0	6/18/12 1:23 p.m.
Re: Cody Miller: No story in my entertainment plea	agdtinman	6/18/12 7:46 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Hedgemony	6/8/12 10:46 a.m.
Man, I was excited to see this on my birthday *NM*	CYBRFRK	6/8/12 10:56 a.m.
I liked it.	BlueNinja	6/8/12 2:15 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:17 p.m.
sorry for the rampart italic tag *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:19 p.m.
rampant ^ *NM*	Kermit	6/8/12 9:20 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT Concur	yakaman	6/9/12 2:27 a.m.
You know	Tex	6/9/12 4:55 a.m.
Re: You know	Hedgemony	6/9/12 6:46 a.m.
Re: You know	Kermit	6/9/12 8:20 a.m.
Re: You know	Hawki	6/9/12 9:12 a.m.
Re: You know	Tex	6/9/12 12:39 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:30 p.m.
Re: You know	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 1:33 p.m.
Re: You know	SonofMacPhisto	6/9/12 3:09 p.m.
:(	Postmortem	6/9/12 1:21 p.m.
Haters gonna hate.	Postmortem	6/9/12 6:17 p.m.
Re: Haters gonna hate.	Kermit	6/9/12 9:55 p.m.
The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 2:39 p.m.
This is what the film needed...	Miguel Chavez	6/9/12 3:25 p.m.
Re: This is what the film needed...	Jillybean	6/9/12 4:11 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Tex	6/9/12 5:16 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/9/12 5:25 p.m.
Classic reply on reddit	scarab	6/10/12 4:19 a.m.
LOST in Space, rather. *NM*	Ma1agate	6/10/12 1:14 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Hawki	6/9/12 5:39 p.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 4:57 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Dagoonite	6/10/12 7:52 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	scarab	6/10/12 9:46 a.m.
Re: The theory that makes me love it:	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:02 a.m.
This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 11:44 a.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Jillybean	6/14/12 5:10 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 6:42 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Cody Miller	6/14/12 7:19 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	hunt3r	6/14/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: This will throw you through the wall	Miguel Chavez	6/15/12 3:19 p.m.
My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:00 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Hawki	6/9/12 7:21 p.m.
Re: My thoughts	Postmortem	6/9/12 7:35 p.m.
Nailed it!	Miguel Chavez	6/10/12 1:41 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 10:10 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	Jillybean	6/10/12 11:07 a.m.
Re: Nailed it! Agreed, again.	yakaman	6/10/12 12:33 p.m.
Prometheus = Halo + Lost.	Ma1agate	6/10/12 12:55 p.m.
Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:25 p.m.
Not even reading the discussion	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:26 p.m.
It worked! *NM*	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:33 p.m.
Re: It worked!	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:37 p.m.
Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:38 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Nikko B201	6/10/12 4:41 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:44 p.m.
Re: Admins? What admins?	Louis Wu	6/10/12 4:47 p.m.
Thanks. [he said sheepishly] *NM*	Kermit	6/10/12 6:49 p.m.
Re: Heh	Tex	6/10/12 4:27 p.m.
Re: Heh	Jillybean	6/10/12 4:28 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:12 p.m.
Re: Heh	Cody Miller	6/10/12 8:25 p.m.
Re: Heh	scarab	6/11/12 8:24 a.m.
BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Postmortem	6/11/12 1:13 p.m.
Share? *NM*	davidfuchs	6/11/12 1:40 p.m.
What's a battle? What's a diorama?	PyroSporker16	6/11/12 1:45 p.m.
Re: BTW, did anyone catch the Halo connection?	Subtank	6/11/12 1:58 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:31 p.m.
Re: Prometheus *OT*	DrDoctor	6/14/12 4:54 p.m.
Just saw it	Archilen	6/20/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Just saw it	Miguel Chavez	6/20/12 8:43 a.m.
Re: omg haloooooooo	Revenant1988	6/20/12 12:38 p.m.
Tell that author to use his inside type.	bryan newman	6/20/12 4:06 p.m.
Yeah, The Two Towers sucked...	munky-058	6/20/12 6:56 p.m.