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Re: I also disagree.
Posted By: Narcogen <narcogen@rampancy.net>	Date: 12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
In Response To: Re: I also disagree. (Brian Graham) : The presentation is what differentiates the forms. The narrative of a game is : not its art. Its art must arise from how it is different from other media: : How it is different much define it, in that it can add a new dimension and : express art as other media have yet been unable. I think the literature-film distinction here trumps this distinction again. Although not all literature has a narrative, quite a lot of it does. The same is true of film. The difference between literature and film is not whether it has narrative or not, but the presentation. If games fail to differentiate themselves as an art form separate from film, then they become a subgenre of them-- but that doesn't make them not an art form, as Ebert posits. I don't think you're correct to say that the art of games arises from how it is different from other media. It's identity as a separate artistic medium lies there. But if it fails to establish itself as a wholly separate entity, it doesn't somehow cease to exist, or cease to share qualities (like narrative) with other artistic mediums. I do say that it is possible for games to evolve into an art form that is wholly separate, combining elements of narrative, the visual elements of filmmaking, and audience participation. I do say that the failure of a good example of such a combination to appear in the 30 years since video games emerged as a medium is not indicative of an inherent inferiority in the medium, which was Ebert's primary assertion. I also do say that the failure of many such works to fail to civilize humanity (collectively or individually) is not a good standard because the goal itself is questionable and far too many good works are excluded by it.

Why Ebert Was Wrong

Message Index

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:12 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Ducain	12/7/05 4:27 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:47 p.m.
I do wonder...	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 4:29 p.m.
Re: I do wonder...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:57 p.m.
Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 5:03 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 5:58 p.m.
metacriticism	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:51 p.m.
Re: metacriticism	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 11:23 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:25 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:28 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	zugy	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:42 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:56 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Pak	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Comment repiles	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:49 p.m.
Re: Comment repiles	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
I disagree	Echoes	12/7/05 4:34 p.m.
Re: I disagree	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 4:56 p.m.
Art...Video Games...Murder	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 5:53 p.m.
Welcome back. *NM*	c0ld vengeance	12/7/05 6:38 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 6:47 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:57 p.m.
Speeding It Up	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:14 p.m.
Craftsmanship	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:43 p.m.
Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:05 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Louis Wu	12/8/05 9:00 a.m.
Re: Expression.	Malleus	12/8/05 11:27 a.m.
Now that you've defined art and craft so well	char	12/7/05 7:10 p.m.
Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:16 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/7/05 7:42 p.m.
My Creation.	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:53 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Pak	12/7/05 8:52 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:15 p.m.
Hanging on my "Wall" IMG	Pak	12/7/05 9:25 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/8/05 12:21 a.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/7/05 11:42 p.m.
Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Wado SG	12/8/05 2:29 a.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/8/05 3:52 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	char	12/7/05 6:56 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Whisp	12/7/05 7:03 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 7:08 p.m.
I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 7:33 p.m.
Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. *NM*	Shishka	12/7/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:10 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:26 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:35 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:57 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Louis Wu	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:50 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:58 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:07 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:13 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 10:15 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:28 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:32 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	jman571	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:42 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 8:50 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 8:51 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:53 p.m.
the ART of War, maybe? *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 9:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 9:59 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:19 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:37 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:36 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:27 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 11:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/8/05 2:24 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/8/05 9:18 p.m.
The problem with art...	zugy	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: The problem with art...	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:46 p.m.
Isin't it ironic....	jman571	12/7/05 10:14 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Wado SG	12/8/05 1:59 a.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 10:31 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Tiny	12/7/05 11:55 p.m.