I also disagree.





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I also disagree.

Posted By: Shishka Date: 12/7/05 7:33 p.m.
In Response To: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game (Brian Graham)

: Until the interactivity of the game is what differentiates it from books and
: movies and offers insight to the human condition, through playing, and
: uplifts our natures, they will continue to be exceptionally fun and
: exceptionally wasteful expenditures of time.
I disagree with your definition of art, and as such, I disagree with your views on games as art.
You assert that movies and novels can be art because they enlighten people to the human condition, and that the while the narrative of a game is capable of such illustration, the title of "art" is denied due to the interactivity. Specifically, you said the following:
That's the crux of the matter, in the end: Video games do not civilize us, they do not build us up, they do not teach us morally by the act of playing; a narrative offered outside the context of interactivity might do that, but if that's the case, why not just make a movie?
Why make a movie when you can write a book?
The presentation is exactly what seperates games, movies, and books as individual art forms. It has nothing to do with the human condition, or a moral lesson, or even the narrative. Take away the narrative from the three mediums and you get something every bit as viable. Poetry is still art. Abstractionism in film is still art. Why then, shouldn't Geometry Wars be considered art? Or Chess? Or Halo's multiplayer mode?
If interactivity (and the illusion of choice Narc mentioned in his article) detract from storytelling, then is the 1960 thriller Psycho not art? Hitchcock's direction made Psycho engaging to the audience not just as seperated, safe and distant viewers, but through clever use of the camera the audience were given the feeling of being particpatory. Accomplices to the woman stealing money, and later on, her murderer. An illusion is created that generates feelings of guilt and excitement within the viewer.
And I think that's what truly defines art- the ability to engage its audience. And audience engagement is the essence of games.
-S

Message Index

Replies:

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game Brian Graham 12/7/05 4:12 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Ducain 12/7/05 4:27 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Narcogen 12/7/05 9:47 p.m.

I do wonder... Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 4:29 p.m.

Re: I do wonder... Brian Graham 12/7/05 4:57 p.m.

Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 5:03 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Roger Wilco 12/7/05 5:58 p.m.

metacriticism Narcogen 12/7/05 9:51 p.m.

Re: metacriticism Roger Wilco 12/7/05 11:23 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:25 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 9:28 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: zugy 12/7/05 9:36 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:42 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Narcogen 12/7/05 9:56 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Pak 12/7/05 10:09 p.m.

Comment repiles Narcogen 12/7/05 9:49 p.m.

Re: Comment repiles Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:09 p.m.

I disagree Echoes 12/7/05 4:34 p.m.

Re: I disagree Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 4:56 p.m.

Art...Video Games...Murder Pallor [subnova] 12/7/05 5:53 p.m.

Welcome back. *NM* c0ld vengeance 12/7/05 6:38 p.m.

Re: Art...Video Games...Murder Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 6:47 p.m.

Re: Art...Video Games...Murder mad.max [subnova] 12/7/05 6:57 p.m.

Speeding It Up Pallor [subnova] 12/7/05 7:14 p.m.

Craftsmanship mad.max [subnova] 12/7/05 6:43 p.m.

Expression. Peptuck 12/7/05 7:05 p.m.

Re: Expression. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:20 p.m.

Re: Expression. Peptuck 12/7/05 9:44 p.m.

Re: Expression. Louis Wu 12/8/05 9:00 a.m.

Re: Expression. Malleus 12/8/05 11:27 a.m.

Now that you've defined art and craft so well char 12/7/05 7:10 p.m.

Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well Peptuck 12/7/05 7:16 p.m.

Re: Craftsmanship Pak 12/7/05 7:42 p.m.

My Creation. Pallor [subnova] 12/7/05 7:53 p.m.

Re: My Creation. Pak 12/7/05 8:52 p.m.

Re: My Creation. Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 9:15 p.m.

Hanging on my "Wall" IMG Pak 12/7/05 9:25 p.m.

Re: My Creation. Peptuck 12/8/05 12:21 a.m.

Re: My Creation. Peptuck 12/7/05 11:42 p.m.

Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart Narcogen 12/7/05 10:09 p.m.

Re: Craftsmanship Wado SG 12/8/05 2:29 a.m.

Re: Craftsmanship Pak 12/8/05 3:52 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga char 12/7/05 6:56 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Whisp 12/7/05 7:03 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Pak 12/7/05 7:08 p.m.

I also disagree. Shishka 12/7/05 7:33 p.m.

Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. *NM* Shishka 12/7/05 7:49 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:10 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 8:26 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:35 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 8:46 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:57 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 9:08 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Louis Wu 12/7/05 9:14 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:30 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 9:40 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 9:44 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:50 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 9:54 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:58 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 10:07 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:11 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 10:13 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 10:15 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 10:28 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Narcogen 12/7/05 10:32 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. jman571 12/7/05 8:46 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Shishka 12/7/05 9:54 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Narcogen 12/7/05 10:22 p.m.

Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 8:28 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 8:30 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:42 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 8:50 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:36 p.m.

art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe *NM* jman571 12/7/05 8:51 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 8:53 p.m.

the ART of War, maybe? *NM* jman571 12/7/05 9:07 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:14 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 9:40 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 9:59 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:19 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 10:30 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 10:37 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 10:36 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 10:27 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 11:07 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/8/05 2:24 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/8/05 9:18 p.m.

The problem with art... zugy 12/7/05 9:30 p.m.

Re: The problem with art... Peptuck 12/7/05 9:46 p.m.

Isin't it ironic.... jman571 12/7/05 10:14 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:22 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 10:30 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Wado SG 12/8/05 1:59 a.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Pak 12/7/05 10:31 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 10:30 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Tiny 12/7/05 11:55 p.m.

The HBO Forum Archive is maintained with WebBBS 4.33.

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:12 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Ducain	12/7/05 4:27 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:47 p.m.
I do wonder...	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 4:29 p.m.
Re: I do wonder...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:57 p.m.
Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 5:03 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 5:58 p.m.
metacriticism	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:51 p.m.
Re: metacriticism	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 11:23 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:25 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:28 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	zugy	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:42 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:56 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Pak	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Comment repiles	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:49 p.m.
Re: Comment repiles	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
I disagree	Echoes	12/7/05 4:34 p.m.
Re: I disagree	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 4:56 p.m.
Art...Video Games...Murder	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 5:53 p.m.
Welcome back. NM	c0ld vengeance	12/7/05 6:38 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 6:47 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:57 p.m.
Speeding It Up	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:14 p.m.
Craftsmanship	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:43 p.m.
Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:05 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Louis Wu	12/8/05 9:00 a.m.
Re: Expression.	Malleus	12/8/05 11:27 a.m.
Now that you've defined art and craft so well	char	12/7/05 7:10 p.m.
Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:16 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/7/05 7:42 p.m.
My Creation.	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:53 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Pak	12/7/05 8:52 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:15 p.m.
Hanging on my "Wall" IMG	Pak	12/7/05 9:25 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/8/05 12:21 a.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/7/05 11:42 p.m.
Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Wado SG	12/8/05 2:29 a.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/8/05 3:52 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	char	12/7/05 6:56 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Whisp	12/7/05 7:03 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 7:08 p.m.
I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 7:33 p.m.
Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. NM	Shishka	12/7/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:10 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:26 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:35 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:57 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Louis Wu	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:50 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:58 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:07 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:13 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 10:15 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:28 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:32 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	jman571	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:42 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 8:50 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe NM	jman571	12/7/05 8:51 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:53 p.m.
the ART of War, maybe? NM	jman571	12/7/05 9:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 9:59 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:19 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:37 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:36 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:27 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 11:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/8/05 2:24 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/8/05 9:18 p.m.
The problem with art...	zugy	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: The problem with art...	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:46 p.m.
Isin't it ironic....	jman571	12/7/05 10:14 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Wado SG	12/8/05 1:59 a.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 10:31 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Tiny	12/7/05 11:55 p.m.