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Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart
Posted By: Narcogen <narcogen@rampancy.net>	Date: 12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
In Response To: Craftsmanship (mad.max [subnova]) : This isn't in dissent to Mr Graham's post, rather my take on the whole : situation. Awesome! I'm sure I'll enjoy it. And hi, max. : A game is not art. The discussion can rage for days, incorporating : investigations into exactly what art is and isolated examples of pieces of : games that are art (Ico, Halflife, Rez, whatever) and if you really wanted : you can get bogged down in some existentialist argument, but honestly what : is the point? : I'm not going to retread old and bloodied ground just say two things. : 1) Just because you like something doesn't mean you can start proclaiming it : is art. Something doesn't have to be a piece of art to provoke enjoyment, : and if someone says your favourite game isn't a work of art you shouldn't : take it personally. I built a new computer recently and it looks fabulous. : It is well crafted and easy on the eye and it entertains me, but its not a : piece of art. Absolutely true! Personal preference for any individual thing, let alone any particular work in an individual medium or genre, is not the defining aspect here. I find your choice of object, a computer, interesting here, which I'll pick up on after your next point... : 2) People need to realise that there is a boundary between art and craft. A : game is a piece of craftsmanship. A game designer is a craftsman; a : programmer is a craftsman. : Just because Halo 2 isn't a piece of art doesn't diminish how great you may : find it. It is very finely crafted. Certainly a valid and widely-held perspective. I think the crux of the matter, of course, is where you draw the line, and why Halo and your computer are on one side, while Citizen Kane and the Mona Lisa are on the other. You've asserted that entertainment value alone is not enough to qualify a work or a medium as art. I'll accept that. I've read before (although I am unfortunately unable to cite a source at this moment) that the boundary between craft and art was formed by utility; that when a device or object was created for the expressed purpose of doing something-- a tool, basically-- that this was not art, but craft. When something was created with care and attention for no particular purpose, it can be art. I'm not sure I buy it. Certainly, it rules out your computer. But it creates several grey areas. What about jewelry? What about fashion? I might accept that there does, somewhere, lie a division between craft and art, although I'm not necessarily sure that we aren't just reinventing the high-art vs low-art / folk art / pop art / commercial art debate there. But if there are divisions, where are they and why? : I do hope I haven't stolen anyone else's words in the crafting of this post, : I have been suspiciously absent from this forum for such a long time that : 95% of you probably don't even know who I am (even though you should!). : Max Certainly they should. What have you been up to?

Why Ebert Was Wrong

Message Index

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:12 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Ducain	12/7/05 4:27 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:47 p.m.
I do wonder...	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 4:29 p.m.
Re: I do wonder...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:57 p.m.
Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 5:03 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 5:58 p.m.
metacriticism	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:51 p.m.
Re: metacriticism	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 11:23 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:25 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:28 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	zugy	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:42 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:56 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Pak	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Comment repiles	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:49 p.m.
Re: Comment repiles	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
I disagree	Echoes	12/7/05 4:34 p.m.
Re: I disagree	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 4:56 p.m.
Art...Video Games...Murder	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 5:53 p.m.
Welcome back. *NM*	c0ld vengeance	12/7/05 6:38 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 6:47 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:57 p.m.
Speeding It Up	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:14 p.m.
Craftsmanship	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:43 p.m.
Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:05 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Louis Wu	12/8/05 9:00 a.m.
Re: Expression.	Malleus	12/8/05 11:27 a.m.
Now that you've defined art and craft so well	char	12/7/05 7:10 p.m.
Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:16 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/7/05 7:42 p.m.
My Creation.	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:53 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Pak	12/7/05 8:52 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:15 p.m.
Hanging on my "Wall" IMG	Pak	12/7/05 9:25 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/8/05 12:21 a.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/7/05 11:42 p.m.
Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Wado SG	12/8/05 2:29 a.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/8/05 3:52 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	char	12/7/05 6:56 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Whisp	12/7/05 7:03 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 7:08 p.m.
I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 7:33 p.m.
Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. *NM*	Shishka	12/7/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:10 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:26 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:35 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:57 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Louis Wu	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:50 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:58 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:07 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:13 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 10:15 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:28 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:32 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	jman571	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:42 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 8:50 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 8:51 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:53 p.m.
the ART of War, maybe? *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 9:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 9:59 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:19 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:37 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:36 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:27 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 11:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/8/05 2:24 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/8/05 9:18 p.m.
The problem with art...	zugy	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: The problem with art...	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:46 p.m.
Isin't it ironic....	jman571	12/7/05 10:14 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Wado SG	12/8/05 1:59 a.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 10:31 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Tiny	12/7/05 11:55 p.m.