Re: I disagree





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Re: I disagree

Posted By: Sep7imus [subnova] Date: 12/7/05 4:56 p.m.
In Response To: I disagree (Echoes)

: A video game can tell more about human nature, though few are made that way.
: It is not a weakness of the medium, but a weakness of the writer's. If
: most author's were terrible, would that mean books are terrible? I'd say
: that video games are still in their infancy, and they're growing up.
: Agreed, though that could change in the future, if developers take it that
: way.
I agree with this point.
Narc, quite rightly, pointed out that video games DO tell stories. Are they generally stories that tell us a lot about human nature and the world and civilization? No, they aren't. Neither, frankly, do most movies or books.
That being said, I just want to point out (for, like, the 1000th time) that Halo 2 does just that. It has a story that challenges our preconceptions about good and evil or us and them. It has pretty hefty themes about the power of religious/political propaganda and fundamentalism. It DOES tell us something about human nature and civilization.
Now, it should be said, most of those complexities have been met with unhappy grumblings by many Halo players. People don't like the Arbiter. They want to continue to think of the Covenant as a monolithic enemy of bad guys. The game, however, doesn't really allow that.
To some extent video games have the power to create these challenging reversals of expectation even more than books or movies (though maybe Halo 2 doesn't manage to do this as well as it should, which accounts for the negative reactions). After all, it's one thing to watch a movie like, say, Blade Runner, that creates a certain sympathy for the "bad guys" and ends up suggesting that they may be more human than the "good guys." It's quite another for the game to force you to ACT as one of the "bad guys," and in the process, to make you realize that perspective.
Potentially, at least, video games have the power to put you in an unfamiliar position more than movies or books do. That no game, including Halo2, has really fulfilled that potential yet might say more about the audience expectations and market forces that shape games than it does about the inherent qualities of games themselves. Perhaps as the market gets larger, more diverse, and more sophisticated, games will have the opportunity to fulfill that potential.
-Sep7imus

... criterati reborn ...

Message Index

Replies:

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game Brian Graham 12/7/05 4:12 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Ducain 12/7/05 4:27 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Narcogen 12/7/05 9:47 p.m.

I do wonder... Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 4:29 p.m.

Re: I do wonder... Brian Graham 12/7/05 4:57 p.m.

Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 5:03 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Roger Wilco 12/7/05 5:58 p.m.

metacriticism Narcogen 12/7/05 9:51 p.m.

Re: metacriticism Roger Wilco 12/7/05 11:23 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:25 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 9:28 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: zugy 12/7/05 9:36 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:42 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Narcogen 12/7/05 9:56 p.m.

Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts: Pak 12/7/05 10:09 p.m.

Comment repiles Narcogen 12/7/05 9:49 p.m.

Re: Comment repiles Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:09 p.m.

I disagree Echoes 12/7/05 4:34 p.m.

Re: I disagree Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 4:56 p.m.

Art...Video Games...Murder Pallor [subnova] 12/7/05 5:53 p.m.

Welcome back. *NM* c0ld vengeance 12/7/05 6:38 p.m.

Re: Art...Video Games...Murder Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 6:47 p.m.

Re: Art...Video Games...Murder mad.max [subnova] 12/7/05 6:57 p.m.

Speeding It Up Pallor [subnova] 12/7/05 7:14 p.m.

Craftsmanship mad.max [subnova] 12/7/05 6:43 p.m.

Expression. Peptuck 12/7/05 7:05 p.m.

Re: Expression. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:20 p.m.

Re: Expression. Peptuck 12/7/05 9:44 p.m.

Re: Expression. Louis Wu 12/8/05 9:00 a.m.

Re: Expression. Malleus 12/8/05 11:27 a.m.

Now that you've defined art and craft so well char 12/7/05 7:10 p.m.

Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well Peptuck 12/7/05 7:16 p.m.

Re: Craftsmanship Pak 12/7/05 7:42 p.m.

My Creation. Pallor [subnova] 12/7/05 7:53 p.m.

Re: My Creation. Pak 12/7/05 8:52 p.m.

Re: My Creation. Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 9:15 p.m.

Hanging on my "Wall" IMG Pak 12/7/05 9:25 p.m.

Re: My Creation. Peptuck 12/8/05 12:21 a.m.

Re: My Creation. Peptuck 12/7/05 11:42 p.m.

Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart Narcogen 12/7/05 10:09 p.m.

Re: Craftsmanship Wado SG 12/8/05 2:29 a.m.

Re: Craftsmanship Pak 12/8/05 3:52 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga char 12/7/05 6:56 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Whisp 12/7/05 7:03 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Pak 12/7/05 7:08 p.m.

I also disagree. Shishka 12/7/05 7:33 p.m.

Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. *NM* Shishka 12/7/05 7:49 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:10 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 8:26 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:35 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 8:46 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:57 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 9:08 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Louis Wu 12/7/05 9:14 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:30 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 9:40 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 9:44 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:50 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 9:54 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:58 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 10:07 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:11 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 10:13 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/7/05 10:15 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Pak 12/7/05 10:28 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Narcogen 12/7/05 10:32 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. jman571 12/7/05 8:46 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Shishka 12/7/05 9:54 p.m.

Re: I also disagree. Narcogen 12/7/05 10:22 p.m.

Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 8:28 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 8:30 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 8:42 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 8:50 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:36 p.m.

art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe *NM* jman571 12/7/05 8:51 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 8:53 p.m.

the ART of War, maybe? *NM* jman571 12/7/05 9:07 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 9:14 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 9:40 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 9:59 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:19 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 10:30 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 10:37 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 10:36 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/7/05 10:27 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/7/05 11:07 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Pak 12/8/05 2:24 p.m.

Re: Is a rose by any other name... Wado SG 12/8/05 9:18 p.m.

The problem with art... zugy 12/7/05 9:30 p.m.

Re: The problem with art... Peptuck 12/7/05 9:46 p.m.

Isin't it ironic.... jman571 12/7/05 10:14 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Brian Graham 12/7/05 10:22 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 10:30 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Wado SG 12/8/05 1:59 a.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Pak 12/7/05 10:31 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Sep7imus [subnova] 12/7/05 10:30 p.m.

Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga Tiny 12/7/05 11:55 p.m.

The HBO Forum Archive is maintained with WebBBS 4.33.

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:12 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Ducain	12/7/05 4:27 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:47 p.m.
I do wonder...	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 4:29 p.m.
Re: I do wonder...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:57 p.m.
Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 5:03 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 5:58 p.m.
metacriticism	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:51 p.m.
Re: metacriticism	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 11:23 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:25 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:28 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	zugy	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:42 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:56 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Pak	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Comment repiles	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:49 p.m.
Re: Comment repiles	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
I disagree	Echoes	12/7/05 4:34 p.m.
Re: I disagree	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 4:56 p.m.
Art...Video Games...Murder	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 5:53 p.m.
Welcome back. NM	c0ld vengeance	12/7/05 6:38 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 6:47 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:57 p.m.
Speeding It Up	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:14 p.m.
Craftsmanship	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:43 p.m.
Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:05 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Louis Wu	12/8/05 9:00 a.m.
Re: Expression.	Malleus	12/8/05 11:27 a.m.
Now that you've defined art and craft so well	char	12/7/05 7:10 p.m.
Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:16 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/7/05 7:42 p.m.
My Creation.	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:53 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Pak	12/7/05 8:52 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:15 p.m.
Hanging on my "Wall" IMG	Pak	12/7/05 9:25 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/8/05 12:21 a.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/7/05 11:42 p.m.
Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Wado SG	12/8/05 2:29 a.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/8/05 3:52 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	char	12/7/05 6:56 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Whisp	12/7/05 7:03 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 7:08 p.m.
I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 7:33 p.m.
Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. NM	Shishka	12/7/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:10 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:26 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:35 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:57 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Louis Wu	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:50 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:58 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:07 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:13 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 10:15 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:28 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:32 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	jman571	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:42 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 8:50 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe NM	jman571	12/7/05 8:51 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:53 p.m.
the ART of War, maybe? NM	jman571	12/7/05 9:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 9:59 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:19 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:37 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:36 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:27 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 11:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/8/05 2:24 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/8/05 9:18 p.m.
The problem with art...	zugy	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: The problem with art...	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:46 p.m.
Isin't it ironic....	jman571	12/7/05 10:14 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Wado SG	12/8/05 1:59 a.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 10:31 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Tiny	12/7/05 11:55 p.m.