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Re: I also disagree.
Posted By: Brian Graham	Date: 12/7/05 8:10 p.m.
In Response To: I also disagree. (Shishka) : I disagree with your definition of art, and as such, I disagree with your : views on games as art. : You assert that movies and novels can be art because they enlighten people to : the human condition, and that the while the narrative of a game is capable : of such illustration, the title of "art" is denied due to the : interactivity. Specifically, you said the following: That's the crux of : the matter, in the end: Video games do not civilize us, they do not build : us up, they do not teach us morally by the act of playing; a narrative : offered outside the context of interactivity might do that, but if that's : the case, why not just make a movie? : Why make a movie when you can write a book? : The presentation is exactly what seperates games, movies, and books as : individual art forms. It has nothing to do with the human condition, or a : moral lesson, or even the narrative. Take away the narrative from the : three mediums and you get something every bit as viable. Poetry is still : art. Abstractionism in film is still art. Why then, shouldn't Geometry : Wars be considered art? Or Chess? Or Halo's multiplayer mode? : If interactivity (and the illusion of choice Narc mentioned in his article) : detract from storytelling, then is the 1960 thriller Psycho not art? : Hitchcock's direction made Psycho engaging to the audience not just as : seperated, safe and distant viewers, but through clever use of the camera : the audience were given the feeling of being particpatory. Accomplices to : the woman stealing money, and later on, her murderer. An illusion is : created that generates feelings of guilt and excitement within the viewer. : And I think that's what truly defines art- the ability to engage its : audience. And audience engagement is the essence of games. : -S The ability to engage its audience is a poor definition for art, for two reasons: One, its entirely subjective, which renders the idea completely chaotic and is therefore null. Two, it leaves to question who the artist is in several circumstances, also rendering the idea of art chaotic. For example, a very deranged person might be very engrossed in a murder he commits, or in watching the murder of another — who is the artist? Is this art? Another example: Slot machines have an incredible ability to engage their audience, especially a certain kind of audience with some deficiency. Can this be qualified as art? Halo (and video games in general) also attract a very specific kind of audience. It is also very engaging. Is it art? Sex engages its audience. Is it art? So, with the definition you gave, I, too, disagree with your definition of art, and as such, I disagree with your views on games as art. In your examples, you claimed that the presentation is exactly what seperates games, movies, and books as individual art forms. Yes! This is true. But not all books contain narratives, and not all poems are devoid of them — as I'd bet is true of Abstractionism, although it could not be, as I am completely and 100% unfamiliar with the subject. But even if we only consider those lacking the narrative — look at what those works containing narrative contain, and see what they have in common with those pieces that lack narrative. Would you classify what they have in common as that which civilizes us, that which gives us insight to the human condition, etc.? If not that, then what is the common connection? A small boy might like Hardy Boys stories but not like the poetry his mother reads. Since it is not engaging, is it art? As far as your Psycho example, two remarks: 1) I never said interactivity detracts for story-telling. I support the idea that it can offer dimensions that authorial control cannot, but this is not enough for it to qualify as art. 2) You seem to be implying that Psycho was in some way interactive, which of course it was not. So is chess art? Well, it's an old game and has not been regularly considered art; indeed, to the best of my knowledge, this is gamers trying to rewrite history to support a view in favor that they spend their time enjoying art, rather than just doing something that is incredibly fun. What about the incredible chess player? Is he the artist — using chess as his medium? I would doubt this, too. He could be very good at chess, but Hydra is likely to be able to defeat all human chess players, and thus will be the ultimate artist by this definition (which you didn't give; I'm just exploring ideas). The presentation is what differentiates the forms. The narrative of a game is not its art. Its art must arise from how it is different from other media: How it is different much define it, in that it can add a new dimension and express art as other media have yet been unable.

Message Index

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:12 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Ducain	12/7/05 4:27 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:47 p.m.
I do wonder...	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 4:29 p.m.
Re: I do wonder...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:57 p.m.
Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 5:03 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 5:58 p.m.
metacriticism	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:51 p.m.
Re: metacriticism	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 11:23 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:25 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:28 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	zugy	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:42 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:56 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Pak	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Comment repiles	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:49 p.m.
Re: Comment repiles	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
I disagree	Echoes	12/7/05 4:34 p.m.
Re: I disagree	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 4:56 p.m.
Art...Video Games...Murder	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 5:53 p.m.
Welcome back. *NM*	c0ld vengeance	12/7/05 6:38 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 6:47 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:57 p.m.
Speeding It Up	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:14 p.m.
Craftsmanship	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:43 p.m.
Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:05 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Louis Wu	12/8/05 9:00 a.m.
Re: Expression.	Malleus	12/8/05 11:27 a.m.
Now that you've defined art and craft so well	char	12/7/05 7:10 p.m.
Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:16 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/7/05 7:42 p.m.
My Creation.	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:53 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Pak	12/7/05 8:52 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:15 p.m.
Hanging on my "Wall" IMG	Pak	12/7/05 9:25 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/8/05 12:21 a.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/7/05 11:42 p.m.
Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Wado SG	12/8/05 2:29 a.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/8/05 3:52 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	char	12/7/05 6:56 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Whisp	12/7/05 7:03 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 7:08 p.m.
I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 7:33 p.m.
Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. *NM*	Shishka	12/7/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:10 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:26 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:35 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:57 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Louis Wu	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:50 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:58 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:07 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:13 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 10:15 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:28 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:32 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	jman571	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:42 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 8:50 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 8:51 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:53 p.m.
the ART of War, maybe? *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 9:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 9:59 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:19 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:37 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:36 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:27 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 11:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/8/05 2:24 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/8/05 9:18 p.m.
The problem with art...	zugy	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: The problem with art...	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:46 p.m.
Isin't it ironic....	jman571	12/7/05 10:14 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Wado SG	12/8/05 1:59 a.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 10:31 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Tiny	12/7/05 11:55 p.m.