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Re: Art...Video Games...Murder
Posted By: Sep7imus [subnova]	Date: 12/7/05 6:47 p.m.
In Response To: Art...Video Games...Murder (Pallor [subnova]) : I'm not so sure that you need to speak about human nature and the world, so : much as the creator needs to have had some thought in the preparation of : the creation and it invokes an emotional response from the viewer. Well, I didn't bring up human nature and the world or the civilizing nature of art. Roger Ebert did. I'm just going with his definition of the qualities he seeks in "art." I dont' think I ahve quite as humanistic a view of it as he does. : I can definitely second the statement that not all movies and books are in : and of themselves art, but most rather fall into the blanket category of : entertainment of the intellectual property sort. But, I will say that : pieces of the movie may qualify. For instance, the camera work involved, : the certain acting by an actor, or the screenwriter's adaptation may : constitute a modicum of art even if the entire work does not. Well, these things may be "artistic," in that they display some skill, provide aesthetic enjoyment (maybe), or what have you. But I'm not sure that an indivdual part of a whole (that can't be separated from it) can be called art, per se. : I cannot comment on this, since I rarely pay attention to video game stories : (aside from Tycho in Marathon). My adventures in WoW have revealed complex : plot lines strewn all over the land of Azeroth, spanning class, race, and : geographical location of NPCs. Arguably, every event does tell us : something about human nature and civilization simply because it exists. : I'm not so sure that "hefty" themes really are all you need. : Take for instance Harlequin romance novels; they deal with hefty issues of : interpersonal strife and sexual/mature encounters. Or, perhaps, a cousin : to the Harlequin romance novels: The Halo Series. See, that's just it. Harlequin romances, like most video games, don't actually deal with those hefty themes at all. They just include them, in relatively simplistic, uninteresting, and unmoving (except perhaps sentimentally) way. Actually dealing with such themes involves some sort of exploration of them, an exploration that moves beyond the simplistic or the easily ideologically comfortable. In fact, usually it's rather uncomfortable (But what do I know? My favorite season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is Season 6.) Few novels do that, fewer movies, and even fewer video games. : So you are for video games as a parable... Not exactly. I don't want them to teach lessons, for instance. I want them to challenge ideas. That, for me, is one of the defining elements of art. : Potentially, being dropped off in prison for a day has the power to put you : in an unfamiliar position more so than a book, a movie, or a video game : does. Damn right. If someone could create a video game, or other artistic product, that could allow you to experience what it was like being in that position, I would absolutely call it art. Wouldn't you? [Brief sidenote: my 1L class visited a prison this semester. It was an eye-opening experience, and I can only imagine what greater intimacy with that life must be like.] : I think we may agree to a certain extent that the creator must have an : articulable vision of the creation and an ethos woven within it before the : work can be recognized as art. As it stands, the compilation of a video : game is more likely than not a mode for entertainment and fattening the : pockets of the big businesses rather than a means by which the developers : express a controlled idea via experience. I am not saying that an artists : conceptual art is not art. I am merely saying that video games are an : entertainment experience. You pay the price to ride the pony; you don't : ponder the meaning of life. Well, I agree that as video games are now, they're basically, and perhaps exclusively, just entertainment. I'm not sure that the creator has to have an ARTICULABLE vision or ethos. Most art that I admire contains something INarticulable. If what it "meant" could be articulated, well, there would be no point in the art itself. : This is an argument closely tied into whether or not MMORPG game characters : and items are in fact property (as posited by scholars such as Joshua : Fairfield). If you grant the character some artistic value, you run the : risk of creating property rights (intellectual) where none previously : existed before. Although, to combat virtual property rights developers : have tried to say that the entire video game -- including all items, : combination of items, stats, user driven creations -- make the copyrighted : game/world; thus it belongs to the developer and not the user. Well, that sounds pretty freakin' fascinating. But I'm not taking Property until next semester. :p Actually, the possiblity for that (actual artistic creation by players WITHIN an MMORPG) may turn out to be the real answer to Ebert's criticism and Narc's dilemma. Possibly, eventually there will be an MMORPG that doesn't, itself, try to be art or try to simulate the unique individual experience with real choices with consequences that Narc was describing. It could just be a good enough toolbox/simulation that it would allow the PLAYERS to provide/create the story/art. (I'm not sure that would work, since, let's face it, most people's artistic creations are more on the level of Harlequin romances than good art, but the possibility could be there, and certainly the variety.) : Anyway, enough of this. That paper was turned in weeks ago. On to Finals! Ugh. My finals are after the new year. There goes MY Holiday break! : Huzzah! : -- Pallor -Sep7imus

... criterati reborn ...

Message Index

Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Game	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:12 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Ducain	12/7/05 4:27 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:47 p.m.
I do wonder...	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 4:29 p.m.
Re: I do wonder...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 4:57 p.m.
Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 5:03 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 5:58 p.m.
metacriticism	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:51 p.m.
Re: metacriticism	Roger Wilco	12/7/05 11:23 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:25 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:28 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	zugy	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:42 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:56 p.m.
Re: Reprinted from my Rampancy.net posts:	Pak	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Comment repiles	Narcogen	12/7/05 9:49 p.m.
Re: Comment repiles	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
I disagree	Echoes	12/7/05 4:34 p.m.
Re: I disagree	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 4:56 p.m.
Art...Video Games...Murder	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 5:53 p.m.
Welcome back. *NM*	c0ld vengeance	12/7/05 6:38 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 6:47 p.m.
Re: Art...Video Games...Murder	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:57 p.m.
Speeding It Up	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:14 p.m.
Craftsmanship	mad.max [subnova]	12/7/05 6:43 p.m.
Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:05 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: Expression.	Louis Wu	12/8/05 9:00 a.m.
Re: Expression.	Malleus	12/8/05 11:27 a.m.
Now that you've defined art and craft so well	char	12/7/05 7:10 p.m.
Re: Now that you've defined art and craft so well	Peptuck	12/7/05 7:16 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/7/05 7:42 p.m.
My Creation.	Pallor [subnova]	12/7/05 7:53 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Pak	12/7/05 8:52 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:15 p.m.
Hanging on my "Wall" IMG	Pak	12/7/05 9:25 p.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/8/05 12:21 a.m.
Re: My Creation.	Peptuck	12/7/05 11:42 p.m.
Craft, Art, Low Art, High Art, Pop Art, PopTart	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:09 p.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Wado SG	12/8/05 2:29 a.m.
Re: Craftsmanship	Pak	12/8/05 3:52 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	char	12/7/05 6:56 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Whisp	12/7/05 7:03 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 7:08 p.m.
I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 7:33 p.m.
Er, with Mr Graham, not Narc. *NM*	Shishka	12/7/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:10 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:26 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:35 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:57 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Louis Wu	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:44 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:50 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:58 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:07 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:13 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	12/7/05 10:15 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Pak	12/7/05 10:28 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:32 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	jman571	12/7/05 8:46 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Shishka	12/7/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: I also disagree.	Narcogen	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 8:42 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 8:50 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:36 p.m.
art is like the gum at the bottom of my shoe *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 8:51 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 8:53 p.m.
the ART of War, maybe? *NM*	jman571	12/7/05 9:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 9:14 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 9:40 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 9:59 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:19 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:37 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 10:36 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/7/05 10:27 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/7/05 11:07 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Pak	12/8/05 2:24 p.m.
Re: Is a rose by any other name...	Wado SG	12/8/05 9:18 p.m.
The problem with art...	zugy	12/7/05 9:30 p.m.
Re: The problem with art...	Peptuck	12/7/05 9:46 p.m.
Isin't it ironic....	jman571	12/7/05 10:14 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Brian Graham	12/7/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Wado SG	12/8/05 1:59 a.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Pak	12/7/05 10:31 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Sep7imus [subnova]	12/7/05 10:30 p.m.
Re: Rebuttal to Narcogen's Article on Story and Ga	Tiny	12/7/05 11:55 p.m.