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	Re: Ouch!
	Posted By: Inverted Sock Puppet	Date: 6/28/02 5:54 a.m.
	In Response To: Re: Ouch! (Steve Levinson) : I think you mean IndocTrination ;-) Yes :) : OK, we can be nice all we want, step out of the box and try to take an : objective viewpoint. We can start with the premise that all civilizations : are equal and that no one is inherently right and no one is inherently : wrong. In other words, we can take moral relativism to its extreme, but if : we do, then we have to say that the following widely established practices : are acceptable in a modern society: 1) Murder of infant girls and women as : a parental/spousal right : 2) Genetal mutilation to remove the desire to commit adultry : 3) Prohibition of girls from receiving an education : 4) Murder of women who have been disgraced by being raped : 5) Ethnic cleansing : 6) The use of starvation as a political weapon : 7) The use of economic santions as a political weapon : 8) Forced conscipture of children : 9) The targeting of civilian populations in war : And I could go on and on. If humankind is to survive, we have to accept that : there are some moral absolutes - otherwise we will descend into a : destructive spiral as we did in WWII - a spiral that has much graver : implications in the nuclear age. Yes, that's true : It is absolutely wrong to kill - war of any kind is immoral. If one has to : choose between killing a few people versus allowing them to kill thousands : or millions, however, there is a clear moral choice to be made. How many : of us, even the most pacifist among us, would not have killed Hitler in : 1937 if we'd had the means and if we knew what was to come? The U.S. may : not be perfect and we have certainly allowed political and business : interests to dictate foreign policy, often with disasterous results, but : there is a difference between right and wrong, here. Again, very true : Western democracies are not perfect, but they do recognize as a fundamental : right the rights of the minority (eg. I can go to a synagogue, you can go : to church, our friend can go to a mosque). In many parts of the world, : such rights do not exist - is it any wonder that these are the places that : serve as breeding grounds for terrorists? Sadly, I suspect that there may : be an ultimate battle to be fought here over the future versus the past. : This isn't about religion, but about the fundamental right of every human : being to be treated fairly and justly. Just because someone is : indortrinated as a child that it's OK to kill a woman as they please : doesn't make their belief morally equivalent to yours. I agree 100% with everything you've said. I am not saying that a non-secular (unsure if the exact word) government is better than a secualr one. Western Democracies are definatly a much better system of Government then theocracy dictatorships. There are always going to be people motivated by jealousy. ie. If someone has something better than you, kill them. This, along with religious extremists have created middle east terrorist groups. The problem with your assumption is that people in countries such as Afghanistan are brought up from birth to believe that the US is bad, murder is ok and to kill everyone different (ok, gross exaggeration here) but the problem is that we see this as wrong. How are you going to explain to someone that all the values that they were brought up on were wrong (to us)?

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Replies:

	Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/17/02 5:14 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/17/02 8:19 p.m.
	Great references - thanks *NM*	Steve Levinson	6/17/02 10:06 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 9:56 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Ben A. Potter	6/18/02 12:09 p.m.
	LOL, U prove my point. Cletus.	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 12:34 p.m.
	Re: LOL, U prove my point. Cletus.	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 12:58 p.m.
	So totally wrong . . .	MakeMineRed	6/18/02 1:02 p.m.
	again...	Ben A. Potter	6/19/02 1:18 p.m.
	I couldn't have said it better myself	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 12:40 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	MakeMineRed	6/18/02 12:39 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 1:39 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/18/02 2:34 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 4:06 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/18/02 7:11 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 7:20 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Mazilurik	6/18/02 8:09 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Agent Cletus	6/19/02 6:29 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:48 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/19/02 11:59 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/19/02 1:58 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/19/02 6:35 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:26 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:15 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/19/02 8:08 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/20/02 12:34 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/20/02 7:30 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:13 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/20/02 9:35 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:22 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/21/02 12:56 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/21/02 7:14 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/22/02 1:50 a.m.
	Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/22/02 9:23 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/22/02 12:45 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/22/02 1:59 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/22/02 5:36 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/22/02 7:40 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Mazilurik	6/22/02 9:13 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/22/02 9:16 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/23/02 7:18 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/23/02 8:26 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/24/02 12:37 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/24/02 1:22 a.m.
	8^D *NM*	Steve Levinson	6/24/02 7:38 a.m.
	LOL *NM*	Tru7h	6/25/02 7:35 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/24/02 8:01 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/25/02 12:52 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/25/02 7:48 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/25/02 8:56 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/26/02 1:16 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/26/02 2:00 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/26/02 8:20 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/26/02 11:53 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/27/02 12:39 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/27/02 7:51 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/28/02 5:54 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/28/02 7:32 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 5:11 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	C Lund	6/18/02 2:54 p.m.
	Perceptions of Science	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 3:13 p.m.
	My bad	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 3:45 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 3:59 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 5:13 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Mazilurik	6/18/02 6:47 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Tru7h	6/18/02 7:16 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Yossarian	6/18/02 7:32 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/19/02 12:50 a.m.
	Re: My bad	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:50 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/29/02 8:04 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 4:35 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/30/02 2:58 p.m.
	*Slight spoiler*	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 4:48 p.m.
	Re: *Slight spoiler*	Steve Levinson	6/30/02 6:24 p.m.
	Re: *Slight spoiler*	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 7:40 p.m.

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