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	Re: Ouch!
	Posted By: Inverted Sock Puppet	Date: 6/25/02 12:52 a.m.
	In Response To: Re: Ouch! (Steve Levinson) : I would like to know your source. I would have guessed Gerald Ford or, more : likely, Ulysses (sp?) Grant. I hated the first Bush, too, but at least he : had the guts to raise taxes after making his no new taxes pledge. He : really flubbed foreign policy in many respects, however. I think that : there was a real missed opportunity when Bush senior could have drawn the : USSR solidly into the modern world back when it still had a functioning : government (Communist in name only) and a functioning economy (after a : fashion). One of my brother's friends in university is doing an essay on Bush's rise to power. He showed my printouts of facts about George Bush when compared to his father (these are supposedly White House approved and so I assume genuine), I can't remember the exact IQ points for each of them (hmm, that lends believability to my story), but I'll see if I can find these booklets again and find out their IQ points. : We often make the mistake of pushing governmental reform before economic : reform, with disasterous results. Not that I believe in dictatorships, but : democracy cannot take root when there is substantial unrest - look at : Germany in the 1030's. The World Bank's approach doesn't work either, when : the government is corrupt - the austerity imposed causes the people : tremendous hardship leading to political unrest while the leaders remain : corrupt and live it up. South Korea is a good example of how a third world : country can make the transition to a modern capatilist economy and a : democracy, in that order, successfully. Spain is also a good example. Yes I do agree with you here. The World Bank and the WEC are shockingly bad at trying to prop up third world countries (I still remember how the World Bank recommended to all 3rd world countries that they should grow coffee. Of course they did and now coffee is so cheap they are all starving to death, having given up land to grow food, to grow coffee. Now they grow heroin instead). South Korea is an excellent example, not even 30 years ago it was a 3rd world country and now it is hosting the world cup and has a democratic government. I don't know what happened in Spain, but I'll believe you. : This is a tricky issue for me since our support of Israel always comes up. : I'm not going to let that issue come up here, as it could really drag : this forum down. Suffice it to say that there is a lot more to it than : religion or politics. Al-Queda is a fundamentalist organization whose : purpose is to bring about an Islamic Jihad, bringing down the Western : world (including Marathon) so that a fundamentalist World can take its : place. As with other fundamentalist movements (including Christian and : Jewish fundamentalism), there is no way to reconcile this with democracy : and free will. We cannot eliminate the causes of Al-Queda's extreemism, : because it's not as much what we have done as who we are. To think : otherwise is extremely naiave. The best that we can do is to contain : Al-Queda, as we're trying to do, to cut off its funding sources (including : our oil imports), and to pressure our "friends" in Egypt and : Saudi Arabia to stop using fundamentalism, the breeding ground for : Al-Queda, as a means of diverting attention from internal governmental : corruption. Hmm, again I'd have to agree with you and say this is a tricky question. I don't know the answer and there probably isn't one either, but responding to violence with violence is just immature for a super power. : You really do like the last word, don't you? So do I ;-) Ohh, close :)

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Replies:

	Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/17/02 5:14 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/17/02 8:19 p.m.
	Great references - thanks *NM*	Steve Levinson	6/17/02 10:06 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 9:56 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Ben A. Potter	6/18/02 12:09 p.m.
	LOL, U prove my point. Cletus.	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 12:34 p.m.
	Re: LOL, U prove my point. Cletus.	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 12:58 p.m.
	So totally wrong . . .	MakeMineRed	6/18/02 1:02 p.m.
	again...	Ben A. Potter	6/19/02 1:18 p.m.
	I couldn't have said it better myself	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 12:40 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	MakeMineRed	6/18/02 12:39 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 1:39 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/18/02 2:34 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 4:06 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/18/02 7:11 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 7:20 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Mazilurik	6/18/02 8:09 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Agent Cletus	6/19/02 6:29 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:48 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/19/02 11:59 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/19/02 1:58 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/19/02 6:35 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:26 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:15 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/19/02 8:08 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/20/02 12:34 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/20/02 7:30 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:13 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/20/02 9:35 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:22 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/21/02 12:56 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/21/02 7:14 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/22/02 1:50 a.m.
	Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/22/02 9:23 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/22/02 12:45 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/22/02 1:59 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/22/02 5:36 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/22/02 7:40 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Mazilurik	6/22/02 9:13 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/22/02 9:16 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/23/02 7:18 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/23/02 8:26 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/24/02 12:37 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/24/02 1:22 a.m.
	8^D *NM*	Steve Levinson	6/24/02 7:38 a.m.
	LOL *NM*	Tru7h	6/25/02 7:35 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/24/02 8:01 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/25/02 12:52 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/25/02 7:48 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/25/02 8:56 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/26/02 1:16 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/26/02 2:00 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/26/02 8:20 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/26/02 11:53 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/27/02 12:39 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/27/02 7:51 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/28/02 5:54 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/28/02 7:32 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 5:11 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	C Lund	6/18/02 2:54 p.m.
	Perceptions of Science	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 3:13 p.m.
	My bad	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 3:45 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 3:59 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 5:13 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Mazilurik	6/18/02 6:47 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Tru7h	6/18/02 7:16 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Yossarian	6/18/02 7:32 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/19/02 12:50 a.m.
	Re: My bad	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:50 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/29/02 8:04 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 4:35 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/30/02 2:58 p.m.
	*Slight spoiler*	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 4:48 p.m.
	Re: *Slight spoiler*	Steve Levinson	6/30/02 6:24 p.m.
	Re: *Slight spoiler*	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 7:40 p.m.

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