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	Re: Ouch!
	Posted By: Steve Levinson	Date: 6/25/02 8:56 a.m.
	In Response To: Re: Ouch! (Inverted Sock Puppet) : I don't know what happened in Spain, but I'll believe you. Generalissimo Franco was a fasciest who ruled Spain with an iron hand for a good chunk of the 20th century, having won the Spanish civil war. Many, if not most Americans supported the communists in the civil war, landing a number of them in hot water during the McCarthey hearings in Congress. But that was before the cold war and before the USSR became the "evil empire", and a long time before communism was descredited as an economic model. After WWII, the U.S. needed Spain as a part of NATO and, hence, we supported Franco, even though human rights were nonexistent in Spain. I don't agree with the means, but after Franco's death, his successor, king Juan Carlos, transitioned his country to a democracy after liberalizing the economy. Today spain is an economic success - and free. BTW, I may be older than most of you, but all of this happened before my time, with the exception of the transition to democracy. : Hmm, again I'd have to agree with you and say this is a tricky : question. I don't know the answer and there probably isn't one : either, but responding to violence with violence is just immature : for a super power. Sadly, sometimes it's the only thing violent people recognize. I'd like to think that using peaceful resistnace ala Ghandi could work everytime. Nonviolence didn't save the Jews from the Holocost, but would have peaceful resistance worked? I doubt it, but we will never know. The one thing that does seem apparent is that Osama bin Laden was emboldened by watching America turn tail and run from Somalia. Regardless of whether or not you think we should have been there in the first place (we meant well), failing to stick it out once we were there made those who do see violence as a means to an end view the U.S. as cowardly and weak. There is a saying - those who turn the other cheek end up get ting a second slap. I don't have a good answer here, but the targeted use of force does have a role if it can be done with minimal casualties and aimed at disrupting the infrastructure of terrorist organizations. I'm a bit concerned, however, about the renewed interest in assisination as a legetimate means - hasn't that backfired on us before (ala Fidel Castro)? I stand by my earlier post - the best way to handle middle-eastern terrorism is to cut off terrorists from their support, including our eventual curtailment of oil imports, and to pressure our "friends" in the region to reform their own societies. Thanks to their short-sightedness, it is not a matter of if but when fundamentalists will come to power in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Not that I agree with their methods either, but they should look to Turkey as a model of what can be.

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Replies:

	Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/17/02 5:14 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/17/02 8:19 p.m.
	Great references - thanks *NM*	Steve Levinson	6/17/02 10:06 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 9:56 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Ben A. Potter	6/18/02 12:09 p.m.
	LOL, U prove my point. Cletus.	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 12:34 p.m.
	Re: LOL, U prove my point. Cletus.	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 12:58 p.m.
	So totally wrong . . .	MakeMineRed	6/18/02 1:02 p.m.
	again...	Ben A. Potter	6/19/02 1:18 p.m.
	I couldn't have said it better myself	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 12:40 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	MakeMineRed	6/18/02 12:39 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 1:39 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/18/02 2:34 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 4:06 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/18/02 7:11 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/18/02 7:20 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Mazilurik	6/18/02 8:09 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Agent Cletus	6/19/02 6:29 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:48 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/19/02 11:59 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/19/02 1:58 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/19/02 6:35 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:26 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:15 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Yossarian	6/19/02 8:08 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/20/02 12:34 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/20/02 7:30 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:13 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/20/02 9:35 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/20/02 9:22 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/21/02 12:56 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Tru7h	6/21/02 7:14 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/22/02 1:50 a.m.
	Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/22/02 9:23 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/22/02 12:45 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/22/02 1:59 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/22/02 5:36 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/22/02 7:40 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Mazilurik	6/22/02 9:13 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/22/02 9:16 p.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/23/02 7:18 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/23/02 8:26 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/24/02 12:37 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/24/02 1:22 a.m.
	8^D *NM*	Steve Levinson	6/24/02 7:38 a.m.
	LOL *NM*	Tru7h	6/25/02 7:35 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/24/02 8:01 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/25/02 12:52 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Tru7h	6/25/02 7:48 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/25/02 8:56 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/26/02 1:16 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/26/02 2:00 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/26/02 8:20 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	:: Beer Can ::	6/26/02 11:53 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/27/02 12:39 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/27/02 7:51 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/28/02 5:54 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Steve Levinson	6/28/02 7:32 a.m.
	Re: Ouch!	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 5:11 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	C Lund	6/18/02 2:54 p.m.
	Perceptions of Science	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 3:13 p.m.
	My bad	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 3:45 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Steve Levinson	6/18/02 3:59 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Agent Cletus	6/18/02 5:13 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Mazilurik	6/18/02 6:47 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Tru7h	6/18/02 7:16 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Yossarian	6/18/02 7:32 p.m.
	Re: My bad	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/19/02 12:50 a.m.
	Re: My bad	Steve Levinson	6/19/02 7:50 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/29/02 8:04 p.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 4:35 a.m.
	Re: Rubicon Volunteers - Science Stands Alone	Steve Levinson	6/30/02 2:58 p.m.
	*Slight spoiler*	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 4:48 p.m.
	Re: *Slight spoiler*	Steve Levinson	6/30/02 6:24 p.m.
	Re: *Slight spoiler*	Inverted Sock Puppet	6/30/02 7:40 p.m.

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