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| Update To Original Thread | |
| Posted By: Train Dodger <tmesisrevenge@gmail.com> | Date: 9/18/12 9:04 p.m. |
In Response To: Why I Hate Glasslands (Train Dodger) B. Williams says: If this was just a question of you not liking the characters or thinking that their viewpoints were too similar then this wouldn't even be a discussion, all of that stuff is subjective, and I can understand that people have differing viewpoints. But it seems your issue isn't really that you think the characters views are too similar, but that you don't agree with the conclusion that they came to instead. I think this is the biggest disconnect between our views on the book. Judging by both of our real world examples, we have extremely different views on the ethicality of what Halsey did and what would be the result if she did that in a modern day society. Your view that any horrible act that involves children is somehow on the same level with any other terrible act pretty much flies in the face of our modern legal system. If you don't think that is true, then look at the separate tiers of sex offender registration. Almost all offenses that land in the highest, life long, tier of the sex offender registry are for people that do things to children. You may think its all the same, and I'm not saying that evil isn't evil, but most people and the federal government disagree with you. So that's what puts what Halsey did on a whole different level than any of the real world items that you've described. In my view, this makes everyone's take on Halsey look realistic and believable, but in your view it makes them cartoony. I do think your big problem with Parnangosky though isn't really based on what she actually does or says in the book but what you infer about her because she chooses to capture Halsey. I'm glad this hasn't devolved into a flame war too, and the discussion has been thankfully pleasant, but I do think you are being a little overly resentful of the book. Its been a year since you read it, if your feelings are still this strong I would suggest you either forget about it completely to save yourself the grief or maybe just re-read it with this discussion in mind, see if maybe you were inferring things that weren't necessarily the author's intention. N. Stallman says: Oh no, it's not that I disagree with their conclusions at all. What ONI did was an abomination. Rather, I believe there are some very serious problems with the way the whole issue was handled. Namely, that the entire sequence of events seems to have been contrived by the author just to spur debate between characters within the fiction itself. Karen Traviss seems very eager to pin one hundred percent of the blame for the SPARTAN Programs on Halsey, when she wasn't the only one responsible for everything. The story breaks verisimilitude for a number of reasons. To reiterate: - Parangosky is the director of ONI. The Office of Naval Intelligence is an evil military intelligence organization that is willing to stoop to just about anything. As head of ONI, she would have ordered all sorts of covert operations with questionable ethics and legality. The S-II program is no different. In fact, considering that ONI agents have been known to simply murder people at the drop of a hat, it's probably pretty far down the totem pole as far as their evil deeds go. Flash-cloning? Kidnapping? Experimentation on children? That sort of awe-inspiring evil should amount to barely a drop in a bucket for them. Just another day at the office for ONI. And yet, Parangosky still flips out at Halsey for her use of flash clones as part of a coverup operation. Parangosky should have known about and authorized every single step of the S-II program. If she didn't, then she's incompetent. She has no right to criticize Halsey or stand on any sort of moral high ground above her, because Parangosky shares responsibility for all of the SPARTAN Programs, and then some. She was no doubt one of the people who approved Section III's funding for it. You can't expect someone like that to just grow a conscience out of the blue, because she shouldn't have one. - Osman would not have been able to provide the rest of Kilo-Five with the proper clearance to even hear about the details of the S-II program in the first place. Those records are sealed from the top. Eyes only. Zero disclosure. Even actual ONI field agents shouldn't know about it. If they hadn't heard all the grisly details, then they wouldn't be able to blabber on about it to each other, so they wouldn't have been able to form any conclusions about it one way or another. Besides, Osman's an officer. She shouldn't be fraternizing with enlisted men and civilians. They should be disciplined enough to do their job without needing to have their opinions swayed by classified information in order to ensure their loyalty. If they cannot obey orders without being placated in such a manner, then they are not fit for the task Osman and Parangosky had in mind. - How is it that Parangosky knew about Kelly-087's kidnapping by Halsey if she didn't know about the Flash Clones? If she can't even figure out what ONI's budget is being spent on, then how would she learn of something that happened to a small band of survivors holed up on an asteroid base many light-years from civilization? This seems contradictory. - Mendez and Ackerson worked on the S-III program, where they took child "volunteers" (who couldn't possibly give consent for such a thing), turned them into chemically and genetically-modified super-soldiers, and deployed them on suicide missions against the Covenant (literally, we're talking 100% attrition here) when they were still pre-teens. It's all right there in Ghosts of Onyx. In Glasslands, Parangosky actually has the nerve to say that Ackerson died a hero in defense of Mars. So, Parangosky is willing to loose her entire supply of vitriol against Halsey, who kidnapped six-year-olds, flash-cloned them to cover up the kidnappings, trained and experimented on them, and finally deployed them in their late teens, but she's also willing to laud Ackerson, who stole Halsey's research to take traumatized war orphans and cheaply mass-produce "volunteer" child super-soldiers, sending them into battle against impossible odds when they belonged in middle school? That does not compute. No, it is patently absurd. Neither Mendez nor Ackerson can hold the moral high ground against Halsey either, so again, they have no right to criticize her. Well, Ackerson can't, because he's dead. - Despite it being an ONI op, Kilo-Five are shuttling themselves around to their little clandestine weapons drops and espionage missions in a regular cruiser that's been modified with stealth coatings and Communications/ELINT gear to perform on-par with one of ONI's famed Prowlers. Why not just use a Prowler? I might be mistaken, and it could in fact be a Prowler, but I'm pretty sure the narrative neglected to tell us whether or not it was one. I vaguely remember hearing something about how they needed additional cargo space, but again, I might be mistaken. It's been a year since I last read it. - The use of military terminology and jargon is almost absent. Even the fictional terms to describe all sorts of items normally found in the Haloverse are substituted with real-world equivalents. "Holovids" are called "Movies", "Credits" are called "Dollars", "Smart AI" are referred to as simply "AI", the list goes on and on. No hand signals or gestures, no call signs, no proper military tactics. Like I said, it feels like we're reading about the exploits of a disorganized band of mercenaries or privateers rather than the emotionally-detached professionals I've come to expect from the series. - The Elites are constantly using human sayings, signaling each moment they choose to do so by prefacing it with "as the humans say". No. Elites do not give a darn about human idioms and expressions. In fact, their honor-based culture dictates that they would feel insulted that one would even suggest they should repeat something like that out loud. Elites have this thing about names and language. They would never soil their tongues with human sayings. Well, if they even have tongues. This comes across as a lack of imagination on the author's part; an inability to come up with new, equivalent sayings of Elite origin. - If they have an AI, why do they even need Evan Phillips to act as an interpreter and expert on Elite culture in the first place? AIs have vast quantities of knowledge. Every single Smart AI in UNSC service should know more about the Sangheili than any "Xenoanthropologist" should (god, I hate that word; it's an oxymoron, because "anthro" means "man"). MJOLNIR Power Armor was designed to allow Smart AIs to ride around in it, acting as universal translators and information technology experts. Sure, a Spartan in MJOLNIR seems a bit too conspicuous for what they had in mind, but there are other ways to deploy AIs in the field. I like the character of Evan Phillips, but he seems superfluous when you consider that having what is essentially a glorified diplomat-cum-researcher along on an operation like that while moonlighting as a spy is downright ludicrous when you're working on destabilizing an alien culture. He's in a really precarious position. It's like they want the poor guy to die out there in the process of satisfying his curiosity. The fact that they have him rigged up with a poison injector that would be activated in the event of his capture shows that they really don't care whether or not he lives or dies anyway, so obviously he's just a supernumerary crew member. - The characterization doesn't follow established canon. In fact, all of the returning members of the cast are completely out-of-character. Parangosky's out of character, Mendez is out of character, and Halsey is also - you guessed it - out of character. Their lines all read like they were essentially hijacked by the author just to prove a point. - The book severely underestimates the threat presented by the Insurrectionists, casting them as grassroots rebels. Family men, in other words. They aren't. They're mass-murderers who use weapons of mass destruction and suicide bombings to try and get concessions out of their government. They have every bit as much blood on their hands as the UNSC, if not more. The UNSC was justified in taking extreme action to permanently neutralize them, in the interest of public safety. The war had already been going on for quite some time when the Spartans arrived on the scene. So, to sum all that up, I'm not saying that I agree with what Halsey did. What I'm saying is that attempting to "confront" it the way Karen Traviss did in Glasslands filled the plot with more holes than a truck full of Swiss Cheese on a delivery run through downtown Beirut. None of the characters that Karen Traviss used to accost Halsey had a leg to stand on in the first place, and those that did should never have even known about the program's details to begin with. Nylund's Halsey was someone who had the strength of character to do some very difficult things. Things that would have given other people pause. Things that less competent individuals would have mishandled. She was driven onward by sheer necessity, knowing that her work would save countless lives. Yes, she's a sociopath who uses subtle manipulation and blackmail to get her way, but she does it because she feels she must in order to save humanity from itself. Karen Traviss's Halsey is a simple-minded, controlling psychopath with delusions of grandeur who just wanted to satisfy her scientific curiosity and didn't care about what was at stake. See, let's get one thing straight here. I'm used to reading science fiction where the scientists and engineers are the "good" guys, or at least morally-ambiguous. If they're forced to do unethical experiments as part of their job, then the blame doesn't lie with them; it lies with whoever set them on such a course to begin with. The higher-ups should take responsibility. ONI's top brass requested unstoppable cyborg commandos for the purpose of capturing and assassinating rebel leaders, and Halsey merely followed along with the overall plan by providing them with a way to get from point A to point B. Every single step of the process was authorized by the military brass in charge of the project. Without them, Halsey wouldn't have been able to do anything. She was basically locked in a cage from the very start. If you say I'm resentful of this book, it's because I feel that the author is resentful of the canon. I get the general feeling that Karen Traviss is one of those ignorant, anti-intellectual tree-hugger types that just loves to vilify scientists in her writings. Because, y'know, they're the "real" boogeymen in fiction. They stick people with needles and saw off their toes and replace them with titanium claws and crazy stuff like that. Or because their smarts mean that they have greater culpability for any crime than the simpletons who make the actual decisions; as if the scientists should "know better" and simply "walk away". That isn't how the real world works. People with high IQs like Halsey are given leeway to basically do as they please, as long as it serves the ends of their masters. For ONI to be anything less than accommodating of her insufferable genius is beyond the pale, considering that they, themselves, are a wholly evil organization that enjoy the fruits of her labor to the fullest. Sure, it isn't fair for her to get away with what she did, but nothing's fair. In fact, that's what I dislike so much about this book; it comes across as an attempt to inject a sense of fairness and propriety into something that was never about fairness to begin with. I liked the fact that the characters in the Halo expanded universe with questionable morals were always one step ahead of their karma, because it was realistic. In fact, I tend to root for evil people in fiction a lot, because I'm contrary that way. No Country For Old Men? Anton Chigurh? Yeah, he kicks ass. You can't just drag characters like that through the mud, because ironically enough, they have their fans too. This book does not bear the seal of the Comics Code Authority. Because it's not a comic book. It's a novelization of a video game. As fans of such, we should be able to have stories where the morals aren't so clear-cut, and the bad guys don't always get their just desserts. Maybe you haven't been reading the news lately, but good does not always prevail over evil in the real world. In fact, it's quite the opposite. If Karen Traviss's rules applied to the world that we live in today, then there would be no intelligence agencies or secret societies or what have you. All their members would be rotting in prison. Someone who writes in such a heavy-handed, didactic manner with the goal of delivering an Aesop's fable to the audience shouldn't be allowed to touch Halo with a ten-foot pole. So, yes, you could say that I'm experiencing a bit of an ideological conflict with the author's work. The only "message" I can take away from this book is that turning children into super-soldiers is wrong and I shouldn't try it at home, but it's okay to destabilize alien cultures that you were recently locked in a genocidal war with. Like, duh. Way to insult our intelligence, KT. I'm really going to apply that knowledge in the real world, where aliens and super-soldiers don't exist. Very useful. Not.
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| Replies: |
| Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/17/12 10:22 p.m. |
| I agree with Williams, but I can see your points. | Rice | 9/17/12 10:41 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Battuta | 9/17/12 10:42 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Battuta | 9/17/12 10:44 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/17/12 11:54 p.m. |
| On second thought... | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 6:24 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | ZackDark | 9/17/12 10:49 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | SonGoharotto | 9/17/12 11:24 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Chewbaccawakka | 9/17/12 11:29 p.m. |
| Correction. | Quirel | 9/18/12 12:10 a.m. |
| Got it | ZackDark | 9/18/12 12:26 a.m. |
| Re: Correction. | Chewbaccawakka | 9/18/12 1:12 a.m. |
| Re: Correction. | Quirel | 9/18/12 1:34 a.m. |
| Re: Correction. | Chewbaccawakka | 9/18/12 1:48 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Battuta | 9/17/12 11:32 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Beckx | 9/18/12 9:40 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/18/12 7:26 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 12:28 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Quirel | 9/18/12 12:32 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | ZackDark | 9/18/12 12:49 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Quirel | 9/18/12 12:55 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | bluerunner | 9/18/12 9:05 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | ZackDark | 9/18/12 9:41 p.m. |
| Total war | Flynn J Taggart | 9/18/12 12:36 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | SonGoharotto | 9/17/12 11:19 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Jaydee | 9/18/12 12:12 a.m. |
| On Halsey being demonized. | Rice | 9/18/12 12:32 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | TDSpiral | 9/18/12 12:33 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Hawki | 9/18/12 1:49 a.m. |
| Projecting guilt | scarab | 9/18/12 2:44 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | Jaydee | 9/18/12 3:01 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | Hawki | 9/18/12 3:12 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | scarab | 9/18/12 3:52 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 4:25 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | Quirel | 9/18/12 9:41 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | Harmanimus | 9/18/12 3:39 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | scarab | 9/18/12 4:07 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | Hawki | 9/18/12 4:46 a.m. |
| Re: Projecting guilt | Harmanimus | 9/18/12 3:00 p.m. |
| More like projecting Quilt | bryan newman | 9/18/12 4:52 a.m. |
| Re: More like projecting Quilt | Hawki | 9/18/12 5:23 a.m. |
| Re: More like projecting Quilt | bryan newman | 9/18/12 5:28 a.m. |
| Re: More like projecting Quilt | Hawki | 9/18/12 5:34 a.m. |
| Re: More like projecting Quilt | scarab | 9/18/12 1:20 p.m. |
| Re: More like projecting Quilt | Hawki | 9/18/12 4:36 p.m. |
| Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hoovaloov | 9/18/12 2:09 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hawki | 9/18/12 2:12 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Quirel | 9/18/12 2:16 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hoovaloov | 9/18/12 2:22 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 2:25 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hoovaloov | 9/18/12 3:01 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | bluerunner | 9/18/12 8:59 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hawki | 9/18/12 2:28 a.m. |
| Agree with all but the last sentence! *NM* | Lurono | 9/18/12 2:43 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hoovaloov | 9/18/12 2:48 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Lurono | 9/18/12 3:12 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hoovaloov | 9/18/12 3:29 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Lurono | 9/18/12 9:35 p.m. |
| This: *NM* | thebruce0 | 9/18/12 9:01 a.m. |
| D'oh, attempt 2 :) This: | thebruce0 | 9/18/12 9:06 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Hoovaloov | 9/18/12 2:18 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 2:40 a.m. |
| Re: Best Line of the Whole Debate | Lurono | 9/18/12 2:55 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | scarab | 9/18/12 3:22 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 3:54 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Archilen | 9/18/12 3:38 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 11:45 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Archilen | 9/19/12 9:14 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/19/12 11:36 a.m. |
| Corollary | Train Dodger | 9/19/12 11:52 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Archilen | 9/19/12 2:36 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/19/12 4:07 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | SonGoharotto | 9/19/12 5:01 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/19/12 5:04 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/19/12 7:15 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | ZackDark | 9/19/12 7:19 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/19/12 7:56 p.m. |
| This is why Gameplay/Canon Segregation exists. *NM* | Rice | 9/19/12 11:56 p.m. |
| Nope. | uberfoop | 9/20/12 12:05 a.m. |
| To be fair to the UNSC... | SonGoharotto | 9/20/12 12:19 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Quirel | 9/20/12 1:02 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Gravemind | 9/20/12 2:17 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/20/12 6:11 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/20/12 9:32 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/20/12 11:13 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/20/12 8:36 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/20/12 9:09 p.m. |
| Parangosky in GoO. | Rice | 9/25/12 4:19 a.m. |
| Also | Rice | 9/25/12 5:26 a.m. |
| On matters of execution | davidfuchs | 9/25/12 7:07 a.m. |
| Re: On matters of execution | General Battuta | 9/25/12 2:46 p.m. |
| The Halsey Jaw Punch | Rice | 9/26/12 2:26 a.m. |
| Re: The Halsey Jaw Punch | Subtank | 9/26/12 5:06 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/19/12 7:41 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | SonGoharotto | 9/19/12 7:48 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Train Dodger | 9/19/12 8:08 p.m. |
| Update To Original Thread | Train Dodger | 9/18/12 9:04 p.m. |
| Re: Update To Original Thread | SonGoharotto | 9/19/12 3:54 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | vlad3163 | 9/23/12 2:27 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | bryan newman | 9/24/12 1:17 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Archilen | 9/24/12 9:04 a.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/24/12 3:20 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | General Vagueness | 9/24/12 3:04 p.m. |
| Re: Why I Hate Glasslands | Tsudico | 10/30/12 2:22 p.m. |
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