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Re: On 'competitive-ness' in Halo 2
Posted By: Sep7imus [subnova]Date: 8/30/05 9:24 a.m.

In Response To: Re: New article at 1up.com... (Overswarm)

: I could go on and write a whole article just talking about the same points
: the guy said. I'm very well learned on game strategy and game design, and
: Bungie DID make a lot of problems. As far as balanced, competitive
: gameplay goes, Halo 1 was better by light years, even though the pistol
: was overpowered (even though only by maybe a shot).

: What it all boils down to though, is that matchmaking is NOT a competitive
: environment. I had a very long conversation with Achronos at Bungie.net,
: and he stated very clearly that balance is NOT Bungie's primary concern in
: matchmaking. If you want balance, if you want fairness, play some MLG
: customs. That's what MLG is about, that is where their fun derives from.

: If you play matchmaking, you are going into what is SUPPOSED to be an
: easy-going shooting spree filled with cool explosions and pretty pictures,
: surrounded by friends and rivals where you can play all day with little to
: no hassle.

: It's no secret that I prefer halo 1 over halo 2, but I don't pretend that
: halo 2 is a horrible game. It's a good game, it just isn't balanced. Which
: is where I find my fun, being a strategic competitive gamer. Bungie
: doesn't WANT halo to be competitive though, nor do they want matchmaking
: to be competitive. I don't like it, and there are a million things I'd
: change about halo 2 (hell, I even think halo 1 LOOKED better for
: gameplay), but I also know my place.

I totally respect you, Overswarm. I really like your strategy guides, and I trust that you have some serious knowledge about competitive Halo playing. But, you make a contention that I've seen a lot of people make (so this isn't just addressed at you) that I still find hard to but: the claim that Halo 2 isn't "competitive."

Now, maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "competitive," but to me it means a game where people can compete with one another, where there is a winner, and (though this isn't really a requirement since games of chance CAN be competitive) where the winner usually demonstrates more skill at the game than the loser. In any case, I REALLY don't see how Halo 2 can be described as "not competitive."

(As a sidenote, I think an argument could be made that Halo1, without the rankings of matchmaking, was actually a lot LESS competitive since opponents - on things like XBoxConenct - were much more likely to be unevenly matched in terms of skill. There's nothing competitive about gettin on XBoxConnect and getting owned 50 to 5 by someone who's just way better than you; nor is it competitive to be doing the owning. Thanks to matchmaking, I think there's a lot more actual "competition" going on in everyday Halo playing in Halo 2 than in Halo 1. But that's just a sidenote and has more to do with the matchmaing system than with game dynamics.)

First of all, it really isn't true, as others have claimed, that a level 1 player (an actual level 1 player, not someone who just started that particular playlist but is actually ranked much higher in others) can come along and beat a level, say, 20 player just through lucky spawns or some other random luck. It just doesn't happen. That's why there ARE different matchmaking levels: because, no matter what you say above, different people DO have different levels of skill at the game and those different levels of skill DO affect how often they win the game and that DOES affect what level they are. So, Halo 2 IS competitive in that way, even in matchmaking.

Now, here's what I think you REALLY mean (I apologize in advance if I'm mis-characterizing your stance): Halo 2 is not as good as Halo 1 at differentiating between different skill levels AT THE HIGHER SKILL LEVELS. Once you have memorized all the maps and the weapon spawn times, once you can easily get the 4-shot BR kill, once you're a consitent one-shot shiper, once you can stick people consistently across the map, etc. (i.e. once you're really good at Halo 2 - and this probably corresponds to being over level 20 or so in matchmaking), THEN it might be the case that someone who also has those same skills and abilities could sometimes beat you and sometimes lose to you based on luck (thus not making clear who really is more "skilled"), but that is already at a high level of skill. For the rest of us (the VAST majority of Halo players), just getting to the sniper rifle first does NOT mean that we are going to easily dominate the game. And it IS competitive, because we'll fight with each other for that sniper rifle and for any other little edge we can get.

(Now, some might contend that there are other types of "skills" that Halo 2 requires, like teamwork and stuff, and that the game actually DOES reward those skills even at higher levels, but I'm not going to get into that.)

Finally, let me just point out that in any game (take real life professional sports, for example) there are going to be instances where luck or something like it actually determines the outcome of the game, allowing the less skilled to defeat the more skillful. It happens all of the time. That doesn't mean that football, or basketball, or hockey, or whatever aren't competitive. It just means that luck is part of the game. That's why they play whole seasons of games instead of just one tournament; it evens out over the course of a season so that the more skilled players rise to the top. I contend that the same thing happens in matchmaking and in Halo2 in general, which is, again, why there are different matchmaking levels in the first place.

-Sep7imus

... criterati reborn ...


Message Index



Replies:

New article at 1up.com...Ename Nep 8/27/05 9:59 p.m.
     I was expecting more from 1-upDevil Mingy 8/27/05 10:07 p.m.
           Re: I was expecting more from 1-upEname Nep 8/27/05 10:33 p.m.
                 Re: I was expecting more from 1-upDevil Mingy 8/27/05 10:41 p.m.
                       Re: I was expecting more from 1-upEname Nep 8/27/05 10:47 p.m.
                             Pathetic. I also expected more...Spartan Jag 8/29/05 10:40 a.m.
           Re: I was expecting more from 1-upkapowaz 8/31/05 8:07 a.m.
     Re: New article at 1up.com...Paladin117 8/27/05 10:15 p.m.
           Re: New article at 1up.com...Paladin117 8/27/05 10:23 p.m.
                 Re: New article at 1up.com...Ename Nep 8/27/05 10:35 p.m.
                       Re: New article at 1up.com...zink 8/27/05 10:55 p.m.
                             Re: New article at 1up.com...Ename Nep 8/27/05 11:07 p.m.
                                   Everything he wrote is correct.JakeDaGreat 8/27/05 11:42 p.m.
                                         Re: Everything he wrote is correct.Devil Mingy 8/27/05 11:49 p.m.
                                               Re: Everything he wrote is correct.JakeDaGreat 8/28/05 12:13 a.m.
                                               Re: Everything he wrote is correct.Dave "IronSight" 8/28/05 11:51 p.m.
                                                     Re: Everything he wrote is correct.lyKENthropy 8/29/05 1:48 p.m.
                                                           Re: Everything he wrote is correct.Halo2needsthepistol 8/29/05 4:00 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Everything he wrote is correct.lyKENthropy 8/29/05 6:04 p.m.
                                         You looking for a marksman?[AMS] GreyThor 8/28/05 11:16 p.m.
                                         Re: Everything he wrote is correct.Doc Platinum 8/29/05 2:37 p.m.
                                               Re: Everything he wrote is correct.UNSCDF 8/29/05 5:09 p.m.
                                         Re: Everything he wrote is correct.Sep7imus [subnova] 8/29/05 2:41 p.m.
                                               Re: Everything he wrote is correct.Endbringer 8/29/05 3:04 p.m.
                                         Re: Everything he wrote is correct.hedfones 8/31/05 12:42 p.m.
     That can't be right.Pvt. Jenkins 8/28/05 12:59 a.m.
           Re: That can't be right.masterskill 8/28/05 3:04 a.m.
                 Re: That can't be right.Ename Nep 8/28/05 4:23 a.m.
     Re: New article at 1up.com...Dean_Kreger 8/28/05 8:54 p.m.
     Yes, broken halo.WaLKa 8/28/05 10:49 p.m.
           Re: Yes, broken halo.Louis Wu 8/28/05 11:07 p.m.
                 Re: Yes, broken halo.WaLKa 8/28/05 11:15 p.m.
                       Re: Yes, broken halo.Louis Wu 8/28/05 11:19 p.m.
                             Re: Yes, broken halo.[AMS] GreyThor 8/28/05 11:25 p.m.
                                   Re: Yes, broken halo.Louis Wu 8/28/05 11:27 p.m.
                                         Re: Yes, broken halo.[AMS] GreyThor 8/28/05 11:34 p.m.
                                               Re: Yes, broken halo.SuperMatt 8/29/05 4:59 a.m.
                                               Re: Yes, broken halo.shooty guy 8/31/05 2:58 p.m.
                                               Re: Yes, broken halo.Shocc 8/31/05 7:05 p.m.
                                                     Re: Yes, broken halo.Count Zero 9/1/05 9:39 a.m.
                                         Re: Yes, broken halo.Spartan Jag 8/29/05 4:40 p.m.
                             Re: Yes, broken halo.Scarab 8/30/05 1:11 a.m.
                                   Re: Yes, broken halo.shooty guy 8/31/05 3:04 p.m.
                                         Re: Yes, broken halo.Louis Wu 8/31/05 4:16 p.m.
                                               Re: Yes, broken halo.shooty guy 8/31/05 4:42 p.m.
                                         Re: Yes, broken halo.Scarab 8/31/05 8:25 p.m.
           Re: Yes, broken halo.Usul 8/31/05 9:41 a.m.
     Re: New article at 1up.com...Nug Blazer 8/28/05 11:14 p.m.
           Re: New article at 1up.com...Louis Wu 8/28/05 11:16 p.m.
                 Re: New article at 1up.com...WaLKa 8/28/05 11:23 p.m.
                       Re: New article at 1up.com...Louis Wu 8/28/05 11:25 p.m.
                             Re: New article at 1up.com...WaLKa 8/28/05 11:28 p.m.
                                   Re: New article at 1up.com...Lion 8/29/05 8:13 p.m.
                                         Louischaostheory101 8/29/05 8:40 p.m.
                                               This is getting absurd.Louis Wu 8/30/05 8:01 a.m.
                                                     Re: This is getting absurd.Shocc 8/31/05 7:11 p.m.
                                                           Re: This is getting absurd.Count Zero 9/1/05 9:38 a.m.
                                                                 Re: This is getting absurd.Shocc 9/1/05 5:12 p.m.
                                               Bah.Louis Wu 8/30/05 8:11 a.m.
                                               Re: Louiskapowaz 8/31/05 8:18 a.m.
                                                     Despite the previous message's subject line...kapowaz 8/31/05 8:20 a.m.
                                               Re: Louisshooty guy 8/31/05 4:39 p.m.
                                                     Re: LouisLouis Wu 8/31/05 4:46 p.m.
                             Re: New article at 1up.com...zugy 8/29/05 12:24 a.m.
                       Re: New article at 1up.com...Michael M. 8/28/05 11:52 p.m.
                             Re: New article at 1up.com...WaLKa 8/29/05 12:08 a.m.
                                   ...What?Michael M. 8/29/05 1:35 a.m.
                       Re: New article at 1up.com...zugy 8/29/05 12:20 a.m.
                 Re: New article at 1up.com...kapowaz 8/31/05 8:14 a.m.
                       Re: New article at 1up.com...Louis Wu 8/31/05 10:32 a.m.
                             Re: New article at 1up.com...mercury 8/31/05 12:39 p.m.
                             Re: New article at 1up.com...Pizack 8/31/05 12:49 p.m.
     It's all patchwork, folksMothergoat 8/28/05 11:54 p.m.
           Re: It's all patchwork, folksMothergoat 8/29/05 12:00 a.m.
           Re: It's all patchwork, folkszugy 8/29/05 12:18 a.m.
           Re: It's all patchwork, folksLouis Wu 8/29/05 12:23 a.m.
                 Re: eek, what did I say?Mothergoat 8/29/05 1:11 a.m.
                       Re: eek, what did I say? addendMothergoat 8/29/05 1:16 a.m.
                       Re: Damnation =/= Chill OutMothergoat 8/29/05 1:39 a.m.
                       Re: eek, what did I say?mnemesis 8/29/05 1:52 a.m.
                             ...Some of us are more prone than others... *NM*SOA 8/29/05 5:23 a.m.
                       Re: eek, what did I say?Louis Wu 8/29/05 8:53 a.m.
                             Re: The A, B's & C'sMothergoat 8/29/05 9:27 a.m.
                 Re: It's all patchwork, folksprofhalo 8/29/05 3:18 a.m.
                       Re: It's all patchwork, folksEndbringer 8/29/05 2:13 p.m.
                 Re: It's all patchwork, folksHalo2needsthepistol 8/29/05 4:13 p.m.
                       Re: It's all patchwork, folksLouis Wu 8/29/05 4:17 p.m.
           Re: It's all patchwork, folkszink 8/31/05 12:05 p.m.
     good atricleprofhalo 8/29/05 2:39 a.m.
           Re: good atricleLouis Wu 8/29/05 9:04 a.m.
                 Re: good atricle[AMS] GreyThor 8/29/05 4:39 p.m.
     Re: New article at 1up.com...Pkmnrulz240 8/29/05 10:56 a.m.
     Re: New article at 1up.com...Konrad 8/29/05 12:05 p.m.
           Re: New article at 1up.com...zink 8/31/05 3:17 p.m.
     Re: New article at 1up.com...Varsis 8/29/05 12:56 p.m.
     Re: New article at 1up.com...ratboy 8/29/05 1:23 p.m.
           Re: New article at 1up.com...Overswarm 8/29/05 4:35 p.m.
                 Re: On 'competitive-ness' in Halo 2Sep7imus [subnova] 8/30/05 9:24 a.m.
                       Re: On 'competitive-ness' in Halo 2Overswarm 8/30/05 6:14 p.m.
                             Re: On 'competitive-ness' in Halo 2Devil Mingy 8/30/05 8:18 p.m.
                             Re: On 'competitive-ness' in Halo 2Sep7imus [subnova] 8/30/05 9:03 p.m.
                                   Re: On 'competitive-ness' in Halo 2Red Dingo 8/30/05 10:55 p.m.
                                         Re: On 'competitive-ness' in Halo 2Mattat 9/1/05 8:54 a.m.
     my intelligence was assaulted *NM*Cuda II 8/29/05 8:06 p.m.
           I have something to say...Whisp 8/31/05 3:00 p.m.
                 This is ridiculousLocksmitch 8/31/05 8:17 p.m.
                       Re: This is ridiculousLouis Wu 9/1/05 8:02 a.m.
                             Re: This is ridiculousLocksmitch 9/1/05 4:26 p.m.
                                   Re: This is ridiculousAnton P. Nym (aka Steve) 9/1/05 5:31 p.m.
                                         Re: This is ridiculousLocksmitch 9/1/05 8:43 p.m.
                                               Re: This is ridiculousCount Zero 9/2/05 7:29 a.m.
                                               Re: This is ridiculousAnton P. Nym (aka Steve) 9/2/05 8:03 a.m.
                             My opinion.Shocc 9/1/05 10:49 p.m.
                             Grenades on midshipNarcogen 9/2/05 2:52 a.m.



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