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Posted By: QuirelDate: 12/28/12 6:15 p.m.

In Response To: Stop with your logic (Cody Miller)

: None of that matters, because the sequence is so engaging. It's gripping
: emotionally, and it is effective.

Which isn't true for Halo 4.

-Where did this new armor come from?
-Why are the Covenant fighting us again?
-Why was that Covenant cruiser made of tissue paper?
-Who are these people?
-Why is the Didact doing what he's doing?
-Why does a vegetarian have fangs?
-How did someone like del Rio get in command of the Infinity?
-Why am I... wait, am I just waltzing off with a fully armed Pelican? After that confrontation? Shouldn't I be... why aren't they stopping me?
-Halo... 03? What? Hold on, can't I hear more about this?
-What are all these moving parts for? Why doesn't the Didact just close off the trench like he obviously can?
-... How did Cortana... the nuke was in my hands. IN MY HANDS! And how is she getting all physical with me? Where the Hell am I?

: Plinkett's main criticism of Attack of the Clones is that Anakin is a whiny
: bitch, and realistically Padme would not fall in love with him. Probably
: true. But does that matter at all? Unlikely couples exist everywhere in
: film.

"Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense."
I get that odd couples exist, and I've seen some in fiction that actually work.

But when an unlikely coincidence occurs or two characters get busy "Because the author says so", it's not as emotionally satisfying as events working out through the characters' own actions.

Otherwise, I agree that the editing and flow of that romantic development was terrible, and the whole thing could be salvaged with a different cut.

: Logic and coherence does not make a story good.

They make a story great.
The absence of logic and coherence in a story is terrible. It ruins suspension of disbelief. It pulls viewers out of a story. It makes the actual story difficult, if not impossible, to follow.

It makes it impossible for the audience to become emotionally involved.

The best stories I've enjoyed were complex, well-written, and had plenty of thought put into them.
I liked Halo, because I was convinced that there was an overarching story behind it, that there was thought put into the mysteries and the setpieces we visited.

I'm disappointed in Halo, because the story is becoming increasingly reliant on cheap tricks, and because artistic license rules the day.

The Order of the Stick is probably one of the best stories I've read, bar none. The characters are complicated, lovable, and the story never ceases to amaze me with how well it's been plotted. Events flow logically from one step to another. I don't have to sit back and puzzle over why, for example, the character's weapons change from one strip to another. I never have to invoke the MST3K Mantra.

Am I focusing on the wrong thing, because I enjoy both the emotional impact of the story and the effort that goes into this comic? I hope not.
Am I wrong for being disappointed when the hard work in Halo is ignored or thrown out, and the writers don't care enough to get the base facts right? I don't think so.

'cause I'm an engineer.

: The Loftus approach is not how you get better stories, and it's not how you
: enjoy yourself.

Entertainment where you turn your brain off is not good entertainment.

What you're taking umbrage to is that people are getting hung up on "Little details" like the Warthog's brand spanking new suspension. You're saying that we're getting too logical about these details, and should be enjoying the emotional aspects of the story.

Well, as near as I can tell, the reaction to the MJOLNIR Mk. 343i and the new Forward Unto Dawn is just as emotional as it is logical.

The logical part is suspension of disbelief. I know that the Chief was wearing Mark 6 when he entered cryosleep. When he wakes up wearing the styrofoam leotard, a part of my brain is wondering "What?". It's trying to bridge what I know and what I see, and it's coming up short.

Instead of smoothly making the connection myself, 343i is standing off to the side and telling me "This actually is the Mark 6. This IS the Warthog you're looking for. These are the Grunts and Jackals you've known for so long."

Storytelling 101: Show, don't tell.
It's something that 343i should have learned from Legends. Three years later, we can safely assume that they refuse to learn that lesson.

Now, there's the emotional part of the reaction to the changes.
I can't call my reaction to the Warthogs/Grunts/FUD/MJOLNIR logical, because I can't break them into their their components and say what makes a Warthog the vehicle I've loved for the past seven years that I've been a Halo fan. I can't say what components will remove that Warthog-ness if they're omitted.

But there's an emotional attachment I have to the characters, vehicles, guns and armor of Halo (what can I say? I'm a hardware junkie), and that attachment is strongest when I look at the Chief and realize that he is wearing Mark 6, not that he's supposed to be wearing Mark 6.

Lets continue with the Star Wars analogy. What if Lucas had replaced James Earl Jones with another voice actor? We would recognize that the guy in black is supposed to be Darth Vader, and maybe the new guy will do a pretty schnazzy voice on his own.
But it wouldn't BE Darth Vader, because the tones, the emphasis, the presence that J.E.J. brought to Vader would be different. The emotional connection wouldn't be as strong in this one.

Now, how about logic getting in the way of emotional engagement?

"If reason cannot stop you, perhaps force can delay you."
The above was supposed to be ... I dunno. Impactful? Memorable? I dunno. It just made me roll my eyes.

Logically, it was a non-sequitor. The Didact never reasoned with us. From the git-go, he was an ugly brute of a villain determined to crush us and bring generic doomsday to Earth. He only ever used force.

If you want me to be emotionally invested in a villain, I need a logical reason to be invested. I need to know that the villain is a credible threat. I need to know that if he's not the brightest bulb on the chandelier, he's at least capable of laying down the hurt. I need to know that he is a clear and present danger to ME, not a million faceless civilians I never met.

Hell, I need a reason more original than "Save the Earth!" What am I, a Greenpeace activist?

Emotionally, Halo 4 had some high points, but that was all on Jen Taylor and Steve Downes. Even though they were shackled to a crew of mediocre writers, their performance was amazing.

The rest? Even with all the fancy mocap and rendering technology available to them, 343i's delivery was as subtle as an artillery strike, as skillful as a preschooler playing on a Stradivarius.
Rather than drawing on our emotional attachment from the past five games, 343i redesigned the Covenant so that they'd be more bestial, and we were guaranteed to understand that these are the Bad Guys.
Instead of expending the effort of designing a satisfying boss battle, they copped out with a QTE.
Rather than giving the Chief meaningful opposition, they gave us Forerunner battle droids and Captain del Rio.

The point of this long, rambling post? Don't give credit to 343i for serendipity, and don't you dare sell logic short in telling a story.

Message Index


Stop with your logicCody Miller 12/28/12 1:49 a.m.
     Re: Stop with your logic *SP*Jaydee 12/28/12 2:44 a.m.
     I.. Uhhh.... Agree...? With.... You....Lurono 12/28/12 3:22 a.m.
           Also meant Adywan instead of Adi-Wan *NM*Lurono 12/28/12 3:26 a.m.
           Re: I.. Uhhh.... Agree...? With.... You....Cody Miller 12/28/12 11:38 a.m.
                 Email sent *NM*Lurono 12/28/12 8:56 p.m.
     Re: Stop with your logicuberfoop 12/28/12 3:22 a.m.
           Re: Stop with your logic *SP*rhubarb 12/28/12 5:39 a.m.
     Re: Stop with your logicDEEP NNN 12/28/12 7:43 a.m.
     Re: Stop with your logicMetalingus627 12/28/12 9:43 a.m.
     I like this post. *NM*SonofMacPhisto 12/28/12 10:58 a.m.
     A nice hypothesis...NsU Soldier 12/28/12 11:05 a.m.
           Re: A nice hypothesis...Cody Miller 12/28/12 11:31 a.m.
                 Re: A nice hypothesis...Leisandir 12/28/12 11:53 a.m.
                 Re: A nice hypothesis...SonofMacPhisto 12/28/12 11:55 a.m.
                       Re: A nice hypothesis...Cody Miller 12/28/12 12:11 p.m.
                             Re: A nice hypothesis...SonofMacPhisto 12/28/12 5:01 p.m.
                 Re: A nice hypothesis...NsU Soldier 12/28/12 12:19 p.m.
                       This!Chewbaccawakka 12/28/12 12:59 p.m.
     The Loftus ApproachLeviathan 12/28/12 11:16 a.m.
           Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/28/12 11:24 a.m.
           Re: The Loftus Approachmc_leprechaun 12/28/12 11:27 a.m.
                 Re: The Loftus ApproachThe Lionheart 12/28/12 5:28 p.m.
           Qouth the Falcon, "YES!" *NM*NsU Soldier 12/28/12 11:33 a.m.
           Re: The Loftus ApproachCody Miller 12/28/12 11:35 a.m.
                 Re: The Loftus ApproachSonGoharotto 12/28/12 11:38 a.m.
                 Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/28/12 3:09 p.m.
                       Re: The Loftus ApproachCody Miller 12/28/12 3:22 p.m.
                             Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/28/12 5:56 p.m.
                                   Re: The Loftus ApproachCody Miller 12/29/12 12:47 a.m.
                                         Re: The Loftus ApproachCody Miller 12/29/12 1:26 a.m.
                                         Re: The Loftus ApproachSimpsons Rule 12/29/12 1:56 a.m.
                                               Re: The Loftus Approachuberfoop 12/29/12 5:15 a.m.
                                                     Re: The Loftus ApproachSimpsons Rule 12/29/12 2:49 p.m.
                                                           Re: The Loftus Approachuberfoop 12/29/12 9:46 p.m.
                                                           Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/29/12 9:52 p.m.
                                                                 Talking about this? *IMG*The Lionheart 12/30/12 4:54 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Talking about this? *IMG*Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/30/12 5:52 p.m.
                                                                             Ah, okay.The Lionheart 12/30/12 6:03 p.m.
                                                     Re: The Loftus ApproachGravemind 12/30/12 5:07 p.m.
                                               Thank you for this post. *NM*The Lionheart 12/30/12 4:15 p.m.
                                         Re: The Loftus ApproachRagashingo 12/29/12 2:42 a.m.
                                         Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/29/12 11:21 a.m.
                                               Re: The Loftus ApproachCody Miller 12/29/12 11:56 a.m.
                                                     Re: The Loftus ApproachLeisandir 12/29/12 1:20 p.m.
                                                           Re: The Loftus ApproachCody Miller 12/29/12 3:36 p.m.
                                                                 Re: The Loftus ApproachLeisandir 12/29/12 3:38 p.m.
                                                                       Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/29/12 9:38 p.m.
                                                                             Same here. *NM*The Lionheart 12/30/12 5:01 p.m.
                                                     Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/29/12 9:42 p.m.
                                                           Re: The Loftus ApproachCody Miller 12/30/12 11:55 a.m.
                                                                 Re: The Loftus ApproachStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/30/12 1:27 p.m.
                                                                       Re: The Loftus ApproachThe Lionheart 12/30/12 5:25 p.m.
                                                                             Re: The Loftus ApproachArchilen 12/30/12 11:36 p.m.
                                               Seconded. *NM*The Lionheart 12/30/12 4:59 p.m.
                       Re: The Loftus ApproachSonofMacPhisto 12/28/12 5:19 p.m.
                             Wow, that sounds like my kinda guy!The Lionheart 12/28/12 5:35 p.m.
                       Agree with this also. *NM*The Lionheart 12/28/12 5:30 p.m.
           *applauds* You're so awesome, Levi.Gravemind 12/28/12 1:26 p.m.
           TOOK THE WORDS OUT OF MY MOUTH *NM*The Lionheart 12/28/12 5:28 p.m.
           *Salute* *NM*Quirel 12/28/12 5:40 p.m.
     I don't disagree, but...SonGoharotto 12/28/12 11:29 a.m.
           My badSonGoharotto 12/28/12 11:36 a.m.
     Re: Stop with your logicscarab 12/28/12 12:09 p.m.
           Re: Stop with your logicCody Miller 12/28/12 12:14 p.m.
     It wasn't emotionally compelling for me at all...Phoenix_9286 12/28/12 1:21 p.m.
     No.Quirel 12/28/12 6:15 p.m.
           Very well said, sir. *NM*Leisandir 12/28/12 8:11 p.m.
           As always, I agree with QuirelIbeechu 12/28/12 10:38 p.m.
                 Re: As always, I agree with QuirelCody Miller 12/29/12 1:18 a.m.
                       Re: As always, I agree with Quirelscarab 12/29/12 5:02 a.m.
                 Not quite.Quirel 12/30/12 3:15 a.m.
                       I know this is slightly OT, but . . . .Leisandir 12/30/12 8:49 a.m.
                             Re: I know this is slightly OT, but . . . .Quirel 12/30/12 1:50 p.m.
           Re: No.TDSpiral 12/29/12 12:09 a.m.
                 Re: No.Quirel 12/30/12 3:33 p.m.
                       Re: No.scarab 12/31/12 8:51 a.m.
                 This is the limbo that I find myself in now. *NM*The Lionheart 12/30/12 4:04 p.m.
           Re: No.Cody Miller 12/29/12 1:04 a.m.
                 Re: No.Flynn J Taggart 12/29/12 2:12 a.m.
                 Re: No.Quirel 12/31/12 1:57 a.m.
                       Re: No.uberfoop 12/31/12 4:18 a.m.
                 Re: No.RC Master 12/31/12 8:59 a.m.
                 Your brain doesn't work the same way as mine. O_o *NM*The Lionheart 1/1/13 5:08 p.m.
     Re: Stop with your logicKermit 12/28/12 10:59 p.m.
           Re: Stop with your logicIbeechu 12/28/12 11:57 p.m.
                 Consistency and the Rules of Two WorldsNsU Soldier 12/29/12 7:06 a.m.
                 Re: Stop with your logicLeisandir 12/29/12 9:12 a.m.
                       Re: Stop with your logicscarab 12/29/12 9:30 a.m.
                             Re: Stop with your logicLeisandir 12/29/12 11:08 a.m.
                                   Tru datscarab 12/29/12 12:11 p.m.
                                         Re: Tru datLeisandir 12/29/12 1:22 p.m.
                                         Re: Tru datCody Miller 12/29/12 3:37 p.m.
                                               Re: Tru datLeisandir 12/29/12 3:39 p.m.
                 Re: Stop with your logicKermit 12/29/12 3:33 p.m.
                       Re: Stop with your logicIbeechu 12/29/12 7:32 p.m.
     Totally disagreeAvateur 12/29/12 1:04 a.m.
           Re: Totally disagreeStephen L. (SoundEffect) 12/29/12 11:30 a.m.
                 Re: Totally disagreeAvateur 12/29/12 1:47 p.m.
                       Re: Totally disagreeKalamari 12/29/12 6:44 p.m.
                             It's dog food?scarab 12/29/12 6:55 p.m.
     Re: Stop with your logicGeneral Vagueness 1/5/13 7:40 p.m.
           Re: Stop with your logic *LONG*Dundre 1/7/13 7:42 a.m.

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