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Re: Tips for Reach
Posted By: psychophan7	Date: 11/11/09 2:20 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Tips for Reach (Narcogen) : Yes, thanks for the primer. I actually do have this game and have played it, : at least enough to be familiar with the concept, which is why I brought it : up. No way, I too have L4D and play it! What are the chances? : Yes, that is the only distinction. It just so happens that it is extremely, : extremely important. : You've left out the other important elements, though, which is that L4D : features enemies and attacks that are designed to make those allies : useful-- they can rescue you when you cannot rescue yourself. Those : specific situations do not exist in Halo. There is only one way to punish : a player who has made a mistake in Halo: death and checkpoint reloading. : When playing coop there is some incentive to keep allies around, but not : much. In L4D it means a lot- an ally dying brings you closer to the : ultimate penalty. You brought up L4D first and mentioned incentives why to keep allies around. You probably should have explored that thought more fully instead of saying I've left something out from your post. : And by "one" you mean "you." My wife can't. Believe it or : not, Bungie didn't make Halo just for you, or even just for me-- and : that's a big part of the reason why it's in the top XBL games : consistently. News flash: There are definitely people better at playing Halo than me, which really isn't saying much considering that I'm not even very good at playing Halo. : I think you misunderstood me, maybe I didn't draw out all the dots. What's this "misunderstood" mean? It's a completely foreign word to me. I didn't say anything about player time. Was your formula not this? if (A*B) < X, then no Mythic. I figured that A could be 100, 150, 300, whatever; People who would play on Mythic. I based this on a guess of how many people have played Halo 3 with skulls turned on (which is in effect what Mythic is). Then, if B represents people who wouldn't buy Reach because it doesn't have a higher level of difficulty (and I'm assuming there is at least one nut out there who won't, considering that there isn't any market data for people who don't buy a product)... Well, simple math. 300*1 = 300. Here's how I got X: There was some source, either a BWU or a podcast, that mentioned how many people worked on Firefight for ODST. Because I can't be bothered to check my facts, I assume that at least 4 people worked on Firefight for ODST. Now, there are 40 hours in a normal work week, but I doubt anyone at any game studio spends that kind of time working on one thing, so I assumed that 30 hours at most might be spent on working on this. Then, being gracious in my assumptions, figured that it might take two or three such weeks to get a prototype of the difficulty working; hence 75 hours. Now, if 4 people are working on something for 75 hours, then that would be 300 man hours, no? If 300 < 300, then no Mythic. Well, 300 is actually equal to 300, which makes the test false. Therefore, Mythic could be developed, assuming these assumptions are even remotely accurate. : Either one, take your pick. C) Bungie thought a harder game should be optional.

Message Index

Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/9/09 9:26 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Leisandir	11/9/09 9:33 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/9/09 9:36 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	serpx	11/9/09 9:38 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	InnerRayg	11/9/09 9:39 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Devin Olsen	11/9/09 9:46 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Crab	11/9/09 9:49 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	SPARTAN 294	11/9/09 9:56 p.m.
agreein with this post *NM*	Hawaiian Pig	11/9/09 10:02 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	InnerRayg	11/10/09 2:05 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/10/09 2:12 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/10/09 2:49 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/10/09 3:01 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/10/09 3:23 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/10/09 1:43 p.m.
Completely agree	Metalingus627	11/10/09 2:18 p.m.
Re: Completely agree	Narcogen	11/10/09 11:55 p.m.
Re: Completely agree	Metalingus627	11/11/09 3:52 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	11/10/09 3:00 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/10/09 5:25 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/10/09 11:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/11/09 2:20 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/11/09 5:17 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/11/09 2:32 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	chris101b	11/11/09 12:43 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/12/09 6:01 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	chris101b	11/13/09 1:27 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	InnerRayg	11/10/09 6:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hunt3r	11/9/09 9:55 p.m.
agreein with this post *NM*	Hawaiian Pig	11/9/09 9:59 p.m.
and a P.S. :	Hunt3r	11/9/09 10:02 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ragashingo	11/9/09 10:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Leisandir	11/11/09 3:05 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/9/09 9:55 p.m.
agreein with this post *NM*	Hawaiian Pig	11/9/09 10:00 p.m.
Would be better if it was actual AI doing that	RC Master	11/10/09 8:08 p.m.
Re: Would be better if it was actual AI doing that	Hedgemony	11/10/09 8:16 p.m.
Re: Would be better if it was actual AI doing that	RC Master	11/10/09 8:22 p.m.
Re: Would be better if it was actual AI doing that	Hedgemony	11/10/09 8:33 p.m.
Re: Would be better if it was actual AI doing that	RC Master	11/10/09 8:48 p.m.
Re: Would be better if it was actual AI doing that	Vincent	11/11/09 2:47 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	kanbo	11/9/09 10:04 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	dizzy	11/9/09 10:18 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Bernard Strauss	11/9/09 10:41 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach - my p.o.v.	Hedgemony	11/9/09 11:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach - my p.o.v.	Cody Miller	11/10/09 2:08 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach - my p.o.v.	SonofMacPhisto	11/10/09 9:24 a.m.
What have you started?	scarab	11/10/09 9:34 a.m.
Re: What have you started?	Louis Wu	11/10/09 9:38 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Captain Spark	11/9/09 10:29 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ragashingo	11/9/09 10:59 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Captain Spark	11/9/09 11:03 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/9/09 11:14 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hawaiian Pig	11/10/09 2:47 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Rosco-128	11/9/09 10:38 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/9/09 11:19 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Rosco-128	11/9/09 11:56 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/10/09 12:29 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Bry	11/10/09 8:47 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	scarab	11/10/09 9:48 a.m.
EEK ODST *SP* ^^^^ *NM*	scarab	11/10/09 9:50 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Metalingus627	11/10/09 2:24 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	The BS Police	11/9/09 10:40 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cortana 5	11/9/09 10:42 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	The BS Police	11/9/09 10:49 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cortana 5	11/9/09 10:56 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hawaiian Pig	11/9/09 11:00 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hunt3r	11/9/09 11:20 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/9/09 11:24 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hedgemony	11/9/09 11:04 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	ArteenEsben	11/9/09 10:47 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/9/09 11:29 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	ArteenEsben	11/10/09 10:38 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	RC Master	11/10/09 8:46 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ragashingo	11/9/09 10:48 p.m.
My Tip for Reach	ZaneZavin	11/9/09 11:21 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	bluerunner	11/10/09 9:45 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	11/10/09 10:50 a.m.
Make Reach (and any new IP) more like Marathon/H1	Avateur	11/9/09 11:03 p.m.
speaking of reach...	crzymnky069	11/9/09 11:07 p.m.
Re: Make Reach (and any new IP) more like Marathon	Narcogen	11/10/09 12:12 a.m.
Re: Make Reach (and any new IP) more like Marathon	Avateur	11/10/09 12:40 a.m.
Reachathon?	Narcogen	11/10/09 3:11 a.m.
Re: Reachathon?	Cody Miller	11/10/09 12:41 p.m.
Re: Reachathon?	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	11/10/09 1:37 p.m.
Re: Reachathon?	Hedgemony	11/10/09 2:19 p.m.
Re: Reachathon?	Cody Miller	11/10/09 3:26 p.m.
Re: Reachathon?	Narcogen	11/11/09 12:08 a.m.
Re: Make Reach (and any new IP) more like Marathon	Cody Miller	11/10/09 2:06 a.m.
Heresy!	Narcogen	11/10/09 3:30 a.m.
Re: Heresy!	Avateur	11/10/09 3:37 a.m.
Re: Heresy!	Narcogen	11/10/09 4:08 a.m.
Re: Heresy!	Cody Miller	11/10/09 12:26 p.m.
5 minutes to learn, a lifetime to master	RC Master	11/10/09 9:16 p.m.
Re: Heresy!	Narcogen	11/11/09 12:12 a.m.
Re: Make Reach (and any new IP) more like Marathon	Bry	11/10/09 7:18 a.m.
Adjustable Auto Aim	ManKitten	11/9/09 11:31 p.m.
Re: Adjustable Auto Aim	crzymnky069	11/9/09 11:49 p.m.
Re: Adjustable Auto Aim	urk	11/10/09 10:32 a.m.
Re: Adjustable Auto Aim	ManKitten	11/10/09 1:17 p.m.
Re: Adjustable Auto Aim	Gravemind	11/11/09 1:00 p.m.
Re: Adjustable Auto Aim	RC Master	11/10/09 9:21 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	reprobate	11/10/09 12:26 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/10/09 12:35 a.m.
First Person View!	Cody Moore	11/10/09 1:14 a.m.
Re: First Person View!	psychophan7	11/10/09 2:23 a.m.
Third Person View!	Narcogen	11/10/09 3:37 a.m.
Re: Third Person View!	bluerunner	11/10/09 9:27 a.m.
Re: Third Person View! Longish rant...	Hedgemony	11/10/09 2:05 p.m.
Re: Third Person View! Longish rant...	Cody Miller	11/10/09 2:59 p.m.
Re: Third Person View! Longish rant...	Hedgemony	11/10/09 4:35 p.m.
Re: Third Person View! Longish rant...	General Vagueness	11/10/09 4:06 p.m.
Re: Third Person View!	psychophan7	11/10/09 2:28 p.m.
Re: First Person View!	ArteenEsben	11/10/09 10:51 a.m.
Re: First Person View!	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	11/10/09 10:58 a.m.
Re: First Person View!	ArteenEsben	11/10/09 11:20 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/10/09 2:08 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Bungiez	11/10/09 1:09 a.m.
i wanna say this is kp *NM*	Hawaiian Pig	11/10/09 2:39 a.m.
Re: i wanna say this is kp	Louis Wu	11/10/09 8:30 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Someone	11/10/09 2:10 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	scarab	11/10/09 5:17 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Bernard Strauss	11/10/09 4:12 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	scarab	11/10/09 5:04 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	DrDoctor	11/10/09 2:14 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Bry	11/10/09 5:35 a.m.
Wort wort wort	Cody Moore	11/10/09 6:05 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	hyokin	11/10/09 10:25 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	Louis Wu	11/10/09 10:44 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	c0ld vengeance	11/10/09 12:36 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	Arkesane	11/10/09 12:47 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	padraig08	11/10/09 1:02 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	Avateur	11/10/09 12:47 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	c0ld vengeance	11/10/09 12:52 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	bluerunner	11/10/09 1:01 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	Louis Wu	11/10/09 1:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	FyreWulff	11/10/09 5:12 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach/Barrier Rant	psychophan7	11/10/09 2:02 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	urk	11/10/09 10:43 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/10/09 10:45 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	11/10/09 10:54 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/10/09 12:44 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/11/09 12:20 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hawaiian Pig	11/10/09 3:30 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	11/10/09 10:48 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/10/09 11:23 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	padraig08	11/10/09 1:20 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	RC Master	11/11/09 8:34 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/11/09 8:44 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	RC Master	11/11/09 9:58 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	RC Master	11/11/09 9:59 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/11/09 10:20 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/11/09 12:47 p.m.
•No barriers or kill zones anywhere in the game.	c0ld vengeance	11/10/09 12:03 p.m.
Wow, beat me to it.	profhalo	11/10/09 1:13 p.m.
Re: Wow, beat me to it.	Cody Moore	11/10/09 4:59 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/10/09 1:26 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Matt	11/10/09 3:44 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/10/09 3:50 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	SonofMacPhisto	11/10/09 4:26 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/10/09 4:39 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	nash--housewares	11/10/09 4:50 p.m.
At-least-semi-valid jackassery. *NM*	Eiii	11/10/09 7:11 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	ManKitten	11/10/09 8:37 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/11/09 12:24 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Matt	11/11/09 12:04 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/11/09 12:36 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	11/11/09 1:21 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ducain	11/11/09 1:28 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	ManKitten	11/11/09 1:29 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/11/09 10:37 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hedgemony	11/11/09 10:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Matt	11/11/09 2:11 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/11/09 3:12 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/11/09 3:46 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hunt3r	11/11/09 3:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/11/09 10:43 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hawaiian Pig	11/12/09 3:16 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Bry	11/12/09 3:39 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/12/09 4:55 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/12/09 12:38 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/12/09 12:45 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/12/09 12:54 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/12/09 1:05 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/12/09 1:22 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/13/09 1:20 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/13/09 2:54 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/13/09 4:16 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/13/09 2:53 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Mercury	11/13/09 4:03 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/13/09 11:21 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/14/09 12:57 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/12/09 2:24 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hedgemony	11/12/09 4:47 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Hunt3r	11/12/09 5:06 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/13/09 1:16 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/13/09 1:31 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/13/09 1:41 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Mercury	11/13/09 3:49 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/13/09 10:31 p.m.
Tips for arguments.	Mercury	11/12/09 5:41 p.m.
Re: Tips for arguments.	elessar787	11/13/09 1:29 a.m.
Re: Tips for arguments.	Mercury	11/13/09 3:35 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	RC Master	11/12/09 6:21 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/13/09 1:35 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/13/09 5:56 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/13/09 8:36 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/13/09 10:59 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/14/09 1:03 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/14/09 2:39 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/14/09 4:02 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/14/09 1:47 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	scarab	11/14/09 2:43 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/14/09 3:58 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/14/09 4:26 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/14/09 5:13 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/14/09 5:38 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Vincent	11/14/09 5:49 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/14/09 7:14 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Louis Wu	11/14/09 7:19 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	RC Master	11/14/09 11:56 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	11/14/09 12:36 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/13/09 1:28 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	elessar787	11/13/09 1:39 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Leviathan	11/12/09 6:29 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Bry	11/12/09 1:24 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Captain Spark	11/12/09 1:25 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/13/09 8:11 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	11/13/09 8:26 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/12/09 9:48 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	scarab	11/12/09 11:09 a.m.
"Accessable hardcore games."	Gravemind	11/12/09 8:29 p.m.
Re: "Accessable hardcore games."	scarab	11/13/09 5:16 a.m.
Re: "Accessable hardcore games."	Gravemind	11/13/09 12:30 p.m.
Re: "Accessable hardcore games."	scarab	11/13/09 2:23 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/12/09 9:46 a.m.
Pure Win, As Usual *NM*	Narcogen	11/11/09 12:22 a.m.
Two things	rhubarb	11/10/09 7:34 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Gravemind	11/11/09 2:19 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Gravemind	11/12/09 12:52 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ducain	11/12/09 10:30 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	General Vagueness	11/12/09 11:05 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Mirel	11/12/09 12:06 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ducain	11/12/09 1:21 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	zofinda	11/12/09 1:27 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	DarkS7G	11/12/09 1:54 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Mirel	11/12/09 3:08 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Metalingus627	11/12/09 3:25 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/13/09 1:53 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	scarab	11/13/09 5:56 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/16/09 2:26 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/16/09 2:38 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/16/09 2:48 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/16/09 12:03 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Leviathan	11/16/09 3:16 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/16/09 6:11 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/16/09 11:55 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ibeechu	11/16/09 12:19 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Ibeechu	11/16/09 12:21 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Dani	11/16/09 12:27 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/16/09 12:35 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Dani	11/16/09 12:43 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/16/09 2:18 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	psychophan7	11/16/09 3:01 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)	11/16/09 2:16 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/16/09 2:24 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/16/09 9:04 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/16/09 9:56 p.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Narcogen	11/17/09 5:30 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	Cody Miller	11/17/09 12:45 p.m.
Framerate and buying habits	Narcogen	11/18/09 5:51 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	sorahn	11/17/09 1:59 a.m.
60 seems unreal anyway. Keep it 45 if you ask me	Mirel	11/16/09 3:19 a.m.
Bad idea	Narcogen	11/16/09 6:08 a.m.
Re: Tips for Reach	FyreWulff	11/16/09 6:54 a.m.