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Re: this
Posted By: Anton1792 <anton_morgy@msn.com>	Date: 1/12/12 5:27 p.m.
In Response To: Re: this (Stephen L. (SoundEffect)) : I think Orna is a mouthpiece for Elites as a whole, at least in that part. : The quote I had was not spoken dialogue, but Dietz omniscient voice as : author. Well I see that this is the essential crux of the entire notion here: The assumption that the author had in his mind, when writing that passage, the entirety of Orna’s people and that he was deliberately casting them all sort of like that rather than just adding a character to an individual. There is also a second assumption: That Bungie noticed this and was well aware of something so nuanced and not strikingly obvious, and did not, like me and others, simply view that as a single character with a view on the world. As it is we don’t have access to Deitz’s mind, or whoever at Bungie read The Flood before green-lighting the publishing so we will never know for sure. : I don't subscribe to the 'levels of canon' idea. If it's official, it's : canon. You want your levels? Deem the non-game material unofficial. I : don't give a crap for the internal politics of game studio versus author : versus secondary manufacturer. Present a cohesive whole to the folks : buying your stuff, or don't label it as official. The crime here is that : they didn't predict Halo would be as successful as it turned out so they : didn't invest enough forethought into the design phase....that which : meshes all the various outlets of storytelling, not just the games. I do not like canon hierarchies either, but that is not what I was really saying there anyway. I was saying that it looked like they were fundamentally altered before they were included earlier in the story. In fact, I do not even think CtfU is any sort of alteration, I think it does something more sensible than that: It goes along with Orna, because I do not think that it is sensible to assume that when Bungie reviewed the Flood, they read that section and then instantly thought “This represents all Elites”. I think it is more probable that they did what a lot of others did when they read that and thought “One person with a view”. And the fact that it should be a cohesive whole (Which I agree with, obviously) does not change the fact that it was probably not a cohesive whole back then and that this should be taken with a grain of salt, as it should have been back then, with regard to the Elite's entire characterisation. Besides, if I was advocating Bungie’s old canon tier system then I think I would have thoroughly shot myself in the foot there, as I do not think CtfU would have ranked higher than The Flood. Seems sort of like promo material, though I am not too sure about it to be honest. : Their revulsion to the Prophets' betrayal was greater than their misplaced : disdain for humanity. In Halo 2, it took the Arbiter a long while to warm : up to humans. Well, I honestly cannot think of anything being greater than the revulsion that Orna showed when thinking about Humans. That sort of an attitude really does not strike me as anything that would give any sort of concessions or compromises to that which is the target of such hostility. Considering how weakened Humanity was at that point in Halo 3, with the two frigates that they sent to the Ark, I really do not think they would have wasted the effort in sparing Earth at all. It is already a bit of a stretch for me to believe that they even allied as is, much less what things would be like if they were like Orna to be honest. As for the Arbiter, we really do not know anything about his thought processess in Halo 2. All we can do is judge him from his actions, which reveal very little in the way of what he thought of Humans at that point. As it stands though, his first actual discussion with a Human (With John in the clutches of the Gravemind) took place only like a day or something, from his perspective, before meeting up with Miranda and Johnson in the Control Room. Not really long time from the opportunity when he could review his beliefs to getting to the end point of the game. (Though I am not really sure what opportunity he had in Halo 2 at all. The cutscene with the Gravemind did not exactly come off, to me, as striking enough for a religious zealot to believe, but I digress here.) : You'll never convince me that gameplay is going to dictate how story would : play out. A single needler round would have you crying on the ground if : not outright kill you. That Marines can fight with 4 needles sticking out : of their skulls while still hurling insults at 'split-lips' is the result : of game programming, not the realism inherent in the story. Can Grunts and : Jackals do well against an armoy of humans? Have a read through of the : prologue of The Fall of Reach...we never saw THAT many Grunts in the : games. If those hadn't been Spartans, the Grunts probably would have : pasted the UNSC on Lambda Serpentis VII. They had already wiped out a : division of ODSTs a couple of days prior as I recall. The Needler example is a strawman. Where do we draw the line between what we see in the game being canon and what should be handwaved away as gameplay? For instance, do Brutes have a tendency to go berserk, or is that just gameplay? Do high ranking Elites prefer the sword whenever they can use it, or is that just gameplay? Do Grunts actually use suicide tactics with plasma grenades, or is this gameplay? Where is that line between what is considered to be an actual character behavior and what is solely for gameplay purposes? I do not believe that Bungie would portray the enemies in the games in one exact and clear fashion, when in actual fact nothing could be further from the truth in the actual story. On the notion of the Spartans at Jericho VII, they never really did anything spectacular in the fashion in which they dealt with the Grunts that is not possible for normal troopers to accomplish. Had they done what Adrianna-111 did on Metisette and used a Mongoose or something to bludgeon to death the Grunts then I would agree totally with you, but they really just stuffed a hillside with Lotus Anti-Tank mines, and then lured the Grunts onto the hill by firing a few shots. Luring them into a trap, it is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Now I wonder, if it was that easy, what is the difficulty for the UNSC in these scenarios?

Message Index

343I and the future of Halo.	ElzarTheBam	1/10/12 6:16 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	DEEP NNN	1/10/12 8:04 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	FoolsRun	1/10/12 8:44 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	General Vagueness	1/10/12 4:21 p.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/10/12 5:29 p.m.
this	davidfuchs	1/10/12 5:32 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/10/12 6:53 p.m.
Re: this	Quirel	1/10/12 11:16 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 6:25 a.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/11/12 11:27 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 12:03 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/11/12 12:11 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 1:08 p.m.
Re: this	Anton1792	1/11/12 3:12 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 5:13 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/11/12 6:29 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 6:52 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/11/12 7:28 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 8:08 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/12/12 6:15 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/12/12 6:44 a.m.
Re: this	scarab	1/12/12 2:49 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/12/12 3:48 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/12/12 4:05 p.m.
Re: this	scarab	1/12/12 5:23 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/13/12 10:23 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/13/12 11:14 a.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/13/12 12:05 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/12/12 5:16 p.m.
Re: this	Anton1792	1/11/12 9:31 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 10:23 p.m.
Re: this	Anton1792	1/12/12 5:27 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/12/12 5:00 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/15/12 4:47 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/15/12 5:29 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/15/12 7:13 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/16/12 12:35 a.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/16/12 5:38 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 8:17 a.m.
Re: this	Leisandir	1/16/12 8:45 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 9:07 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 4:33 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/16/12 10:31 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 11:27 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	General Vagueness	1/11/12 11:10 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	FoolsRun	1/11/12 7:25 a.m.
halomultiplayer.isnotcanon.net	scarab	1/11/12 7:31 a.m.
Re: halomultiplayer.isnotcanon.net	FoolsRun	1/11/12 7:53 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	General Vagueness	1/11/12 11:43 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	Flynn J Taggart	1/11/12 1:20 p.m.
the comments they're responding to	kidtsunami	1/10/12 4:12 p.m.
The one thing 343i needs to do:	Azo 'Galvat	1/11/12 12:03 a.m.