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Re: this
Posted By: Stephen L. (SoundEffect) <soundeffect@hotmail.com>	Date: 1/11/12 10:23 p.m.
In Response To: Re: this (Anton1792) : Right, I can sort of see this. I mean, it is not the strongest evidence for a : species wide opinion on something, but if we were to say that Orna is : being used as a mouthpiece here for the rest of his people then it may : make sense from the opinion that the canon is whole in and of itself : between the contributions from Bungie and whoever else Microsoft hires to : churn out more novels. (And the idea that they already had this fictional : universe semi-planned out) I think Orna is a mouthpiece for Elites as a whole, at least in that part. The quote I had was not spoken dialogue, but Dietz omniscient voice as author. : The Flood was released just over a year before Halo 2 was released, and when : Halo 2 came out we would already have conflicting messages regarding this, : if we are to make extrapolations of an entire culture from one or two : individuals: Orna's rather strikingly misanthropic diatribe and then the : stuff that Bungie decided to include in Halo 2's Limited Edition Content : booklet. In that was essentially the polar opposite of what Deitz put in : the Flood with Orna's dialogue there. For the retcon in the Elite's date : of encounter, I am sure that this first happened in Ghosts of Onyx back in : 2006 when Kurt watched as Alpha Company were wiped out by Covenant : reinforcements, Elites being observed among them. Tom also fought them : during Torpedo as well. So it appears that there was already alterations : to this apparent personality before any indications of a retcon became : apparent; two conflicting ideas: One from a third party author and another : coming straight from Bungie themselves. Someone else mentioned Contact : Harvest changing the date of encounter of the Brutes from 2552 to 2525, : and this retcon was implemented by a Bungie Employee; no less, one of the : people who essentially co-wrote the Halo story. It sort of seems to me : that Bungie had different ideas about how the story should develop than : what other authors had already done at the time. I don't subscribe to the 'levels of canon' idea. If it's official, it's canon. You want your levels? Deem the non-game material unofficial. I don't give a crap for the internal politics of game studio versus author versus secondary manufacturer. Present a cohesive whole to the folks buying your stuff, or don't label it as official. The crime here is that they didn't predict Halo would be as successful as it turned out so they didn't invest enough forethought into the design phase....that which meshes all the various outlets of storytelling, not just the games. : Basically, it would seem that either the retcon was in no way affiliated with : a change in the Elite's mentality (They could quite easily make the retcon : fit with Orna's mentality by having the Elites mention that they love : slaughtering Humans with their bare hands or something) as alterations : were made before the retcon. And/Or that the Elites really did not have an : actual canonical personality at that point; it was all just one shots. The : two changes (And I don't think the personality change is really a change) : appear separate. I'm not looking for a change in the Elite's mentality, I was offing a novel-supported explanation for the Elites' apparent absence from human engagements until 2552. The source material was there. They just decided to change things later on. : Think about Halo 3 for a moment. If this original personality of the Elites : was similar to that of Orna's, an opinion that holds the Human adversary : to be so beneath then, and so disgusting, that they are not even worthy to : kill in person but only through "lower life forms" like Grunts, : this makes Halo 3's co-operation between the two species silly. They would : not even stoop so low to kill a Human with their own hands, but now they : will fight alongside them? These early notions seem to run plain contrary : to Bungie's very own plans for the game's story. Their revulsion to the Prophets' betrayal was greater than their misplaced disdain for humanity. In Halo 2, it took the Arbiter a long while to warm up to humans. : For the Spartans to rise up and grab the Elite's attentions from fighting so : well indicates that the UNSC at large has pretty much been failing with : trying to take on Grunts and Jackals on the ground, otherwise the Spartans : have nothing to contrast against. We all saw how Grunts and Jackals behave : in battle from Halo CE; slow, unorganized, undisciplined. For the UNSC to : struggle with this is silly. How well do you see Grunts, for instance, : piloting a lance of Wraith tanks or flying in a Banshee formation having : to fight Longsword fighters tearing across the sky, knowing how easily : they panic? Putting the Elites into the war gave a bit of dignity back to : the Halo story in my opinion. You'll never convince me that gameplay is going to dictate how story would play out. A single needler round would have you crying on the ground if not outright kill you. That Marines can fight with 4 needles sticking out of their skulls while still hurling insults at 'split-lips' is the result of game programming, not the realism inherent in the story. Can Grunts and Jackals do well against an armoy of humans? Have a read through of the prologue of The Fall of Reach...we never saw THAT many Grunts in the games. If those hadn't been Spartans, the Grunts probably would have pasted the UNSC on Lambda Serpentis VII. They had already wiped out a division of ODSTs a couple of days prior as I recall. : Even for Orna to recognize that his species are commonly referred to as : "Elites" by Humans is incongruous. Humanity, in this version of : the story, has only really encountered Elites a few weeks ago. Not really : enough time for something like that to fully form and circulate on both : sides of the conflict. The nomaclature of "Elite" sort of : implies a familiarity to the UNSC forces. Much better to explain that than the full absence of Elites until 2552. The Covenant seemed to know more about humans than humans knew about Covenant. Orna was at Reach and Halo. He was probably privy to human communications. I could have been something he'd only just learned and that's why it was even mentioned...it was a fresh disgust in his mind. : Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think that there was no such : thing as a "Halo Story Bible" and that it was made up on the go. There are printed excerpts from it in the Halo PC strategy guide. How much more extensive it was, I can't say.

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343I and the future of Halo.	ElzarTheBam	1/10/12 6:16 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	DEEP NNN	1/10/12 8:04 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	FoolsRun	1/10/12 8:44 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	General Vagueness	1/10/12 4:21 p.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/10/12 5:29 p.m.
this	davidfuchs	1/10/12 5:32 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/10/12 6:53 p.m.
Re: this	Quirel	1/10/12 11:16 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 6:25 a.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/11/12 11:27 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 12:03 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/11/12 12:11 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 1:08 p.m.
Re: this	Anton1792	1/11/12 3:12 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 5:13 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/11/12 6:29 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 6:52 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/11/12 7:28 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 8:08 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/12/12 6:15 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/12/12 6:44 a.m.
Re: this	scarab	1/12/12 2:49 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/12/12 3:48 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/12/12 4:05 p.m.
Re: this	scarab	1/12/12 5:23 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/13/12 10:23 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/13/12 11:14 a.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/13/12 12:05 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/12/12 5:16 p.m.
Re: this	Anton1792	1/11/12 9:31 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/11/12 10:23 p.m.
Re: this	Anton1792	1/12/12 5:27 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/12/12 5:00 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/15/12 4:47 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/15/12 5:29 p.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/15/12 7:13 p.m.
Re: this	General Vagueness	1/16/12 12:35 a.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/16/12 5:38 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 8:17 a.m.
Re: this	Leisandir	1/16/12 8:45 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 9:07 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 4:33 p.m.
Re: this	Bry	1/16/12 10:31 a.m.
Re: this	Stephen L. (SoundEffect)	1/16/12 11:27 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	General Vagueness	1/11/12 11:10 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	FoolsRun	1/11/12 7:25 a.m.
halomultiplayer.isnotcanon.net	scarab	1/11/12 7:31 a.m.
Re: halomultiplayer.isnotcanon.net	FoolsRun	1/11/12 7:53 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	General Vagueness	1/11/12 11:43 a.m.
Re: 343I and the future of Halo.	Flynn J Taggart	1/11/12 1:20 p.m.
the comments they're responding to	kidtsunami	1/10/12 4:12 p.m.
The one thing 343i needs to do:	Azo 'Galvat	1/11/12 12:03 a.m.