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Re: sin, the flood, and baptism
Posted By: dude1 <mgs24evr@msn.com>Date: 2/27/05 3:23 p.m.

In Response To: sin, the flood, and baptism (forestfroggr)

: As much as I doubt Bungie follows biblical imagery as closely as seems to be
: sometimes assumed, I think it would be fun to look at some other possible
: parallels, if nothing else but for the sheer gratuity of it all. :)

: Firstly, i think I find resonance with the angel/fallen angel theory, at
: least to some extent. It seems fairly clear to me that the Forerunner
: created the flood. Halos, even for a very advanced society, would take a
: long time to build, and after all, when one is involved (at least how it
: has been represented) in a deserate struggle for survival against a foe
: such as the flood, too much time would have to be taken and too many
: resources diverted to build them at such short notice. Guilty Spark does
: say they were built to study and contain the flood. If the situation is so
: desperate that the only choice is to fire the halos, then they must have
: been built before the flood were a threat or there simply would not have
: been time. Anyway, one could speculate about why the flood were created-
: possibly as a weapon, which would make sense of Gravemind being the
: monument to sins. At any rate, the firing of halo could be a failsafe put
: in by the Forerunner who understood the dangers. Interesting biblical
: imagery that could provide a reason for creating the flood- Satan's fall
: within Jewish and Christian tradition is seen as the result of trying to
: be God, or usurp God's place. Think about it, the Forerunner are at the
: pinnacle of technological advancement- they can create quais-planets, for
: goodness sake, but some of them want more. perhaps the Flood were seen as
: a means to whatever 'more' was- perhaps that is where the covenant gets
: the idea of the Great Journey- salvation from a doomed existence. The
: Forerunner, after all, were still (as far as we can tell) mortal-
: perchance the Flood were seen as a way to immortality. (Gravemind, can,
: after all, resurrect- he is an interesting character. Read what Jude 6
: says...might be related somehow.)

: Sin, in religious tradition, is more than violating commands- it is seen as
: the self trying to be what only God can be: self-existent. With the
: Forerunner something obviously went horribly wrong, and try as they could,
: nothing could stop the onslaught of the flood (which is an apt description
: for the effects of sin) How Gravemind survived the firing is unclear to
: me, but fits within the biblical imagery of the flood and the ark- A few
: Forerunner managed to get on the Ark (whatever it is) and were able to
: survive the flood. However, even in the biblical accounts the flood did
: not eliminate sin, just the sinners. It seems, therefore, that the
: Forerunners mananged to get to earth somehow, whether Earth is the ark or
: the Ark landed on earth- the latter seems more likely to me, but who
: knows? Here is where a big assumption comes in, and two possible options-
: If all the halos were fired, as Guilty Spark seems to suggest is protocol,
: then humans most likely would have been destroyed at the time of firing,
: unless one assumes that 100,000 years in the past they were still
: evolutionarily lacking in sentience. In this case, a Nephilim type
: scenario is more likely. Contrarily, 100,000 years is a long time, and a
: race such as the Forerunner, with few survivors stranded on a different
: planet, would be concerned with survival rather than propogating knowledge
: of their society, technology, past, etc., and so it is plausible that they
: lost most of this. This would certainly correlate with what Guilty Sprak
: says about lost time being human history, and how humans are able to be
: Reclaimers (both John and Miranda, apparently) When the Halos were
: originally fired, it must have been assumed that the Flood would not be
: completely destroyed- why else have Reclaimers or 'containment protocol'
: if the Flood will no longer be a threat? At the intial firing, it must
: have been know it was not a permanent solution. Hence, the idea of a
: reclaimer to come and complete the task.

: This brings me to the idea of baptism and the final defeat of the flood(sin).
: Read what it says in 1 Peter 4:18-21
: He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom he
: also went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago
: when God awaited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being
: built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
: and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also...

: As the flood in the biblical account did not destroy the power of sin, so the
: first firing of the halos did not eradicate the Flood. However, it was a
: precursor to what would come- the Reclaimer, who would stop the flood.
: This firing of the Halos by the Reclaimer, if the verses in 1 Peter have
: any relation to it, is seen as the baptism which will be the salvation of
: the Forerunner...perhaps not a salvation in the sense that they can
: survive and live, but salvation from the flood, an existence that is
: really a non-existence... this could have obviously been what the Covenant
: think of as their Great Journey. Perhaps the Forerunner see their
: salvation from the flood not in terms of survival, but rather of not
: falling into the nothingness they have created. After all, logically, the
: Flood is a self-destructive entity, because one way or another it is going
: to run out of food- after all, it will consume all. perhaps that was the
: Forerunners reason for creating them- maybe they thought that this was a
: means to immortality/greatness, whatever, except it went horribly wrong,
: and they paid for their sins.

: My guess is that the Forerunner survivors aboard the Ark were somehow immune
: to effects of the halos, and therefore the firing really will be a baptism
: for their descendents, in that it will purify the galaxy from the flood
: forever. perhaps the Covenant are not that far off... At any rate, it
: looks as if the 100,000 year war is coming to an end...

: anyway, there are fairly gaping holes in all I have said, but i thought it
: would be fun food for thought. :)

i like the thoughts on the creation of the flood being a way the Forerunners tried to become like gods - in creating life. sort of like Frankenstein, huh? they create these monstrosities which then escape their control, and they eventually destroy themselves trying to destroy the creation. again, it's a matter of trying to do what god does: create. sort of ironic that their creation led to war, which is essentially cyclical destruction. ooh, the irony!

--dude1


Message Index




Replies:

Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersEagle 117 2/21/05 4:54 p.m.
     WhewJillybean 2/21/05 5:00 p.m.
           Re: WhewEagle 117 2/21/05 5:02 p.m.
                 Re: WhewHikaru-119 2/21/05 5:10 p.m.
                       Re: WhewEagle 117 2/22/05 8:00 a.m.
                 Re: WhewFugitiveSoldier 2/21/05 5:10 p.m.
                       The Last Xion -- Would that tie in?Sniper 058 2/21/05 5:16 p.m.
                 Re: WhewMr. Mister 2/21/05 5:21 p.m.
     All I can say is. . . wow.ARCHANGEL 7 2/21/05 5:08 p.m.
     Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersoBlade 2/21/05 5:09 p.m.
     Nice ‹ <--Smiley face, look hardEchoes 2/21/05 5:17 p.m.
           Re: Nice ‹ <--Smiley face, look hardEagle 117 2/21/05 7:22 p.m.
     Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersPeptuck 2/21/05 5:18 p.m.
     Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of Answersmeleeman 2/21/05 5:26 p.m.
           Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersHikaru-119 2/21/05 5:35 p.m.
                 Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersSniper 058 2/21/05 6:16 p.m.
                       Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersHikaru-119 2/21/05 7:05 p.m.
                             Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersEagle 117 2/21/05 7:17 p.m.
                                   Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersHikaru-119 2/21/05 7:28 p.m.
           John 117 < "The Savior"Eagle 117 2/22/05 8:27 a.m.
                 Re: John 117 < "The Savior"Eagle 117 2/25/05 10:43 a.m.
                       Re: John 117 < "The Savior"Captain Spark 2/25/05 10:54 a.m.
                             Re: John 117 < "The Savior"Series III (MetalSilver) 2/25/05 10:56 a.m.
                             You should've read before opening your mouthEagle 117 2/25/05 11:15 a.m.
                                   Re: You should've read before opening your mouthCaptain Spark 2/25/05 11:28 a.m.
                                         Re: You should've read before opening your mouthSep7imus [subnova] 2/25/05 11:33 a.m.
                                               Re: You should've read before opening your mouthEagle 117 2/25/05 12:14 p.m.
                                               Re: You should've read before opening your mouthCaptain Spark 2/25/05 3:56 p.m.
                                         Re: You should've read before opening your mouthEagle 117 2/25/05 12:11 p.m.
                                         Re: You should've read before opening your mouthLouis Wu 2/25/05 1:36 p.m.
                                               Re: You should've read before opening your mouthWalshicus 2/25/05 2:21 p.m.
                                                     Re: You should've read before opening your mouthVorpal Sword 2/25/05 2:31 p.m.
                                               Re: You should've read before opening your mouthStuntmutt 2/25/05 3:04 p.m.
                                                     Re: You should've read before opening your mouthLouis Wu 2/25/05 3:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: You should've read before opening your mouthWalshicus 2/25/05 3:34 p.m.
                                                                 Re: You should've read before opening your mouthLouis Wu 2/25/05 4:15 p.m.
                                                                 Re: You should've read before opening your mouthCount Zero 2/25/05 5:21 p.m.
                                                                       Re: You should've read before opening your mouthWalshicus 2/25/05 6:22 p.m.
                                               Re: You should've read before opening your mouthCaptain Spark 2/25/05 3:54 p.m.
                                         Re: You should've read before opening your mouthAnton P. Nym (aka Steve) 2/25/05 3:18 p.m.
                                               It's funny where these conversations go :-) *NM*Eagle 117 2/25/05 3:47 p.m.
                                                     Yes...Walshicus 2/25/05 3:53 p.m.
                                                           Re: Yes...Eagle 117 2/25/05 4:19 p.m.
     good to hear from you as always eagle :D *NM*Voltage 2/21/05 5:38 p.m.
           It's nice to know I'm remembered :-) *NM*Eagle 117 2/21/05 7:18 p.m.
     *blush* :) *NM*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 2/21/05 5:44 p.m.
     The issue of the Flood is still unanswered...xitwound117 2/21/05 7:42 p.m.
           Re: The issue of the Flood is still unanswered...spaartan117 2/21/05 8:24 p.m.
           Re: The issue of the Flood is still unanswered...Skedar 2/21/05 8:51 p.m.
                 Re: The issue of the Flood is still unanswered...ErraticAuto 2/22/05 3:41 a.m.
     Very Nice. Well Written! *NM*Steve 2/21/05 9:20 p.m.
     Dude, you are AWESOME *nm*dude1 2/22/05 4:12 p.m.
     Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersEric Trautmann 2/22/05 7:17 p.m.
           Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of Answersdude1 2/22/05 7:58 p.m.
           Thanks for the response, Trautmann *NM*replay 2/22/05 9:47 p.m.
           Does this mean I get a cookie... at least a crumbEagle 117 2/23/05 12:18 a.m.
                 Re: Does this mean I get a cookie... at least a crEric Trautmann 2/23/05 3:51 p.m.
                       Re: Does this mean I get a cookie... at least a crdude1 2/23/05 5:53 p.m.
                       Re: Does this mean I get a cookie... at least a crJamirus99 2/23/05 7:35 p.m.
                       Re: Does this mean I get a cookie... at least a crEagle 117 2/23/05 9:28 p.m.
     A few questions/commentsyakaman 2/26/05 2:35 p.m.
           Re: A few questions/commentsEagle 117 2/26/05 11:40 p.m.
                 Re: A few questions/commentsyakaman 2/27/05 2:45 p.m.
     sin, the flood, and baptismforestfroggr 2/27/05 1:57 p.m.
           Re: sin, the flood, and baptismdude1 2/27/05 3:23 p.m.
           Re: sin, the flood, and baptism58 2/27/05 3:37 p.m.
     Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersWado SG 2/27/05 5:57 p.m.
           Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersEric Trautmann 2/28/05 5:26 p.m.
                 Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of Answersreplay 2/28/05 6:04 p.m.
                       Re: Trautmannís Clue: A Dictionary of AnswersWado SG 2/28/05 6:19 p.m.



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