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Re: also...
Posted By: General Battuta <seth.dickinson@gmail.com>Date: 11/5/11 9:55 a.m.

In Response To: Re: also... (Ibeechu)


Well, you're arguing against me as a man, and I think what Jilly thinks, though - perhaps phrased in a more friendly manner, given I'm not as often forced to deal with the consequences of that kind of thought - I think you're just not willing to take a step back and consider the other side of the argument: that there is something worth looking at here.

Sexism is a very real, very powerful force, especially in nerd culture, and especially in academia, where women are constantly held back by it. It pops up in strange places, and it's always worth looking for, even in yourself, or myself, or the places you work or learn.

: Yes, I'm saying you're grasping at straws and forcing connections. It's fine
: to notice these things. But to, in the very next breath, say that these
: things are the way they are because of males thinking lowly of women, that
: is just ridiculous and I think it's completely offensive. Not everything
: has a metaphorical or double or subconscious meaning. This is where
: analyses like these fall apart. It's fine to say, "The epilogue of
: Halo 2 feels rapey," but to follow it up with "therefore, we can
: see how the male subconscious influenced the game" is entirely non
: sequitur. You can do that with anything in any medium. It does not imply
: malice or some sexist subconscious or anything.

You're making an argument of non-falsifiability. That's fine, and it's a good argument, especially in science. But I don't think it really applies here, because we're talking about frequency patterns, not an algorithmic event in a single text.

You seem to think that the blog post you read is arguing for 'malice' or some intentional discrimination against women. That's rarely true when it comes to problematic depictions of women in media. These issues usually creep in subtly, often without intent on the part of the author(s).

I think you're also treating this type of analysis as if it's based on algorithmic, rule-based reasoning. It's not. When you look at the gender dynamics of a text, you're employing frequency-based reasoning -- you look for repeated patterns across a body of work.

Here's an example: my friend Tamora Pierce, a best-selling author, has spent time working in comics, where she tried to foster female superheroes for young women to root for. One day, she erupted in anger over a comic book cover -- I can't remember if it was for a comic she'd written, or someone else's. It depicted a group of young female heroes in skin-tight outfits, tied to a pole, being menaced by a group of tentacles and splattered in white goo that covered them from necklines to waist.

"It's a cumshot," she said. "They're just trying to sell it as tentacle porn."

These patterns come up again and again in the handling of female characters, across all kinds of media. That's why the Bechdel Test, for example, works: it doesn't mean anything applied to one individual work, but when used to analyze a body of work, it has enormous power.

Halo doesn't do anything nearly this gratuitous or ridiculous. But leaving a vulnerable female character to be menaced by tentacles is, absolutely, a pretty gendered move. Intentionally or not -- it's an attempt to invoke the (male, by default assumption's) fear of rape jeopardy towards their female companion. Similarly, the beat with Tartarus coercing Miranda - it's a momentary trigger of the 'oh no, they'll rape her!' jeopardy card, and then Johnson shows up to intervene.

: If it's a sphincter, why can't it imply pooping? The Flood are disgusting;
: why not use imagery equally disgusting? Why does it HAVE to be sexual?
: Because the writers are males? Don't you see how THIS is offensive and
: sexist?

You're building a straw man here. It doesn't actually matter whether the writers or male or female, since both sexes are equally capable of screwing this up. Just focus on the text itself, and set aside questions of 'did they mean to do this' and 'who did this'.

That said, I don't think you can make a strong scatological argument about the flood. Nothing about them is inherently, uh, poopy? They forcibly create life by violating the bodies of other life; like Giger's alien, they're all about the rape. Besides: would making an argument that the level 'Cortana' involves a penis' journey up an anus really help your case? :P

: I just do not understand this. Playing Halo 3 did not make me go, "you
: know, they're right. Women ARE weak." I saw it for what it is: the
: Chief trying to save his only real friend. It didn't make me think less of
: women. It didn't change my perception of the world. If anyone's ever
: played Halo 3 and decided that women are inferior, they have a mental
: illness far more serious than sexism.

Again, I think you're going off a little too strong here. First, the media that's shaped your attitudes towards men and women has NEVER made you, or anyone else, say 'that's right, women ARE weak!' The changes are much more subtle than that, often entirely unintentional.

Second, the argument you're reacting to doesn't contend that Halo 3 says 'women are weak, you should think less of women.' It's more subtle than that - it points to little narrative beats or shades of perhaps-unintentional meaning that are an expression of our flawed gender system.

So, for example, when Tartarus makes a rape threat towards Miranda, we understand that it is a rape threat using not logic from the 2-whateverth century setting of Halo, but from our own world, where we would expect a rape threat in that same situation. And we see - and are perhaps uncomfortable with - the way that world has shaped the narrative. Does it make sense for Tartarus to use a rape threat against Miranda? Was it used for more than a gratuitous sense of menace?

We could then have a fairly reasonable discussion of those questions, without having to go off yelling about how the very idea is sexist towards men.

Similarly Halo 3, which I think handles gender much less well than Halo 2.

: I was quoting Freud. But I didn't want to give the impression that I think
: any of his other points are valid. I'm not saying your arguments are
: Freudian, either. I'm saying "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
: is exactly the point I'm trying to make. And I really don't think it's
: platitudinal.

I think our world would be very much impoverished if we weren't able to analyze text and look at what it's saying. Please don't take that analysis as some kind of direct attack on the writers. Sometimes they don't even realize what they're saying.

Message Index



Replies:

Feminist analysis of Halo 2ElzarTheBam 11/4/11 6:28 a.m.
     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Overdoziz 11/4/11 6:41 a.m.
     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2davidfuchs 11/4/11 7:21 a.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 9:03 a.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Vagueness 11/4/11 9:54 a.m.
                       Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 10:26 a.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Quirel 11/4/11 12:12 p.m.
                                   Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Vagueness 11/4/11 2:35 p.m.
                                         Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 3:21 p.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2=sw=warlord 11/4/11 8:53 p.m.
                                   Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 8:56 p.m.
                                         Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Overdoziz 11/5/11 6:39 p.m.
                                               Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2SonofMacPhisto 11/5/11 7:10 p.m.
                                                     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Vagueness 11/5/11 7:47 p.m.
                                                     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Overdoziz 11/5/11 8:52 p.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/7/11 9:10 p.m.
                       Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/7/11 9:48 p.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/8/11 12:24 a.m.
                                   Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2SonofMacPhisto 11/8/11 10:14 a.m.
                                         Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/8/11 4:29 p.m.
     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Vagueness 11/4/11 9:49 a.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Louis Wu 11/4/11 10:50 a.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 10:53 a.m.
                       Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Louis Wu 11/4/11 11:30 a.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Overdoziz 11/4/11 12:11 p.m.
                                   Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 12:43 p.m.
                                   Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2scarab 11/4/11 1:08 p.m.
                                         Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Beckx 11/4/11 1:12 p.m.
                                         Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Overdoziz 11/4/11 1:19 p.m.
                             Also:Overdoziz 11/4/11 12:14 p.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 12:40 p.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Vagueness 11/4/11 11:47 a.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/7/11 9:40 p.m.
     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2BanditORR 11/4/11 10:00 a.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Mid7night 11/4/11 12:18 p.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Ibeechu 11/4/11 4:28 p.m.
                       ell oh ell i broke the forum *NM*Ibeechu 11/4/11 4:30 p.m.
                             That's what you get, insulting Freud! *NM*SonofMacPhisto 11/4/11 4:43 p.m.
                       Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Battuta 11/4/11 5:14 p.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Jillybean 11/4/11 4:49 p.m.
                       Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Miguel Chavez 11/4/11 4:52 p.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/8/11 5:40 p.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Vagueness 11/8/11 6:35 p.m.
                       Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/8/11 7:03 p.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Leviathan 11/8/11 7:07 p.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Quirel 11/8/11 11:49 p.m.
                                   Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/9/11 12:34 a.m.
                 Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Leisandir 11/8/11 10:39 p.m.
                       Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Jillybean 11/9/11 1:35 p.m.
                             Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/9/11 1:51 p.m.
                                   Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Jillybean 11/9/11 2:03 p.m.
                                         Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Quirel 11/9/11 9:16 p.m.
                                         Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2General Vagueness 11/13/11 6:25 p.m.
     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Jillybean 11/4/11 5:42 p.m.
           also...Jillybean 11/4/11 6:00 p.m.
                 Re: also...General Vagueness 11/4/11 7:26 p.m.
                       Re: also...Jillybean 11/4/11 7:37 p.m.
                             Re: also...Ibeechu 11/4/11 7:53 p.m.
                                   Re: also...Jillybean 11/4/11 8:05 p.m.
                                         Re: also...General Battuta 11/4/11 8:22 p.m.
                                         Re: also...Ibeechu 11/4/11 10:22 p.m.
                                               Re: also...General Battuta 11/5/11 9:55 a.m.
                                                     Re: also...SonofMacPhisto 11/5/11 10:47 a.m.
                                                     HOLD THE PHONEJillybean 11/5/11 1:56 p.m.
                                                           Re: HOLD THE PHONEQuirel 11/5/11 3:12 p.m.
                                                                 Re: HOLD THE PHONEJillybean 11/5/11 3:27 p.m.
                                                                       Re: HOLD THE PHONEGeneral Battuta 11/5/11 3:39 p.m.
                                                     Re: also...BanditORR 11/5/11 6:27 p.m.
                                                           Re: also...SonofMacPhisto 11/5/11 7:07 p.m.
                                                                 Re: also...BanditORR 11/5/11 9:22 p.m.
                                                                       I don't want to get into this too muchLeisandir 11/6/11 8:26 a.m.
                                                                             Re: I don't want to get into this too muchGeneral Vagueness 11/6/11 8:44 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: I don't want to get into this too muchLeisandir 11/6/11 6:30 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: I don't want to get into this too muchGeneral Vagueness 11/7/11 9:03 a.m.
                                                                             Re: I don't want to get into this too muchJillybean 11/6/11 12:20 p.m.
                                                                             Re: I don't want to get into this too muchVandle Valsher 11/6/11 4:38 p.m.
                                                                             I think I'll simply say...DHalo 11/6/11 6:58 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: I think I'll simply say...Leisandir 11/6/11 9:52 p.m.
                                                                                         My final words on the topic ... for the momentJillybean 11/7/11 12:31 p.m.
                                                                                               Also, ignore the fact I sound like Cody here *NM*Jillybean 11/7/11 12:36 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: My final words on the topic ... for the momentGeneral Vagueness 11/7/11 1:12 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: My final words on the topic ... for the momentJillybean 11/7/11 1:50 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: My final words on the topic ... for the momentGeneral Vagueness 11/7/11 3:05 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: My final words on the topic ... for the momentQuirel 11/7/11 7:50 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Tab explosion *NM*Jillybean 11/8/11 11:36 a.m.
                                                                       Re: also...SonofMacPhisto 11/7/11 10:14 a.m.
                                                           Re: also...General Battuta 11/7/11 6:51 p.m.
                                                                 (this is for BanditOrr)General Battuta 11/7/11 6:52 p.m.
                                                     Re: also...General Vagueness 11/5/11 7:19 p.m.
                                               Re: also...Jillybean 11/5/11 2:04 p.m.
                                                     Re: also...BanditORR 11/5/11 6:35 p.m.
                                         Re: also...General Vagueness 11/5/11 6:17 p.m.
                             Re: also...Overdoziz 11/5/11 5:19 a.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Overdoziz 11/4/11 7:04 p.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/7/11 2:15 p.m.
     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Dragonclaws 11/7/11 2:24 p.m.
     Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2The Loot 11/7/11 9:31 p.m.
           Re: Feminist analysis of Halo 2Quirel 11/7/11 10:53 p.m.



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