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..in which I blather on and on. With a diagram! :P
Posted By: thebruce0 <thebruce@rogers.com>Date: 9/28/10 7:14 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway? (uberfoop)


: I think we've got a conflict of definition here.
: Rather than try and tackle it myself, I'll let that Escapist Extra Credits
: guy do the talking!
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlOXAtPvMDk&feature=related

Sure, to a degree I agree, but...
Problems contain choices. At this point it's really a matter of semantics.

Which is more valuable to the player - having their choices lead ultimately to different unique outcomes, or having the freedom to choose different ways to solve problems? I think most people want to at least feel that they have the freedom to choose their own methods for solving a problem, even if the 'success' outcome will always be the same.

eg, I don't see choosing gear to win a battle as a problem - it IS a choice - because they can both win a battle. The problem is finding the process that leads to that solution, which is comprised of any number of choices you make, and providing a different experience each time.

To the WOW example:
* Problem: How do I defeat this boss?
* Solutions: Armor A, B, and D are sufficient to defeat the boss.
* Outcomes: 1: Defeat the boss. 2: Death by boss. 3: Runaway!
* A choice: With Armor A success takes a long time, but it's easy. With Armor B it's quick but the task is hard. Armor D makes me invulnerable so I can defeat him however I want, but it costs a fortune. Armor C - well, it's a hindrance to me and one hit from boss will kill me; impossible to win with it.

So what choice do I make?
My problem is how to defeat the boss successfully and move on.
My choice may be to run away and come back another day, perhaps once I have Armor D. Right now I have armor A but I have a meeting in 30 minutes, so I'll come back to later. Wait, friend X just decided to lone me Amor C. Death to boss!

In Halo (or any linear fps) the problem is how to win the game. Or in smaller bits, how to pass a level, defeat an encounter, or just reach the next checkpoint. Those are single-outcome problems because the game is linear - there's only one "success" outcome (though many "fail" and "stalemate" outcomes: keep dying, or keep playing but never moving forward, which would be boring anyway).

The choice is what forges the the path you take to solve the problem.

* A novel doesn't give you a choice in the story. It's linear. The problem is written, and the choices are made for you.
* In a CYOA, there are multiple distinct 'success' outcomes, perhaps multiple 'failure' outcomes too. Problems in the CYOA are not linear - a problem may be as small as being contained in a single choice branch, or possibly containing a number of branches. But - each branch is the result of a choice.
* In a linear video game, each problem has only one success outcome - defeat the level/game. But each problem - in a well-made game - should provide you many choices in how to achieve that outcome. This is discussed in the video, and yes - to get to the solution it's a problem, not a choice. BUT your route to the solution is formed by choices.
* Bad game design is the kind where you have to defeat a boss, but only one path of choices will be successful the rest result in failure. Only the combination of Armor B and shield U will defeat the boss. Every other 'choice' results in death. There's no personalization, no strategy, it's a limited approach, and modern games (should) avoid that like the plague.

I'm being very redundant here. :P saying the same things different ways.

Here's my visual summary below - some people value the left diagram more, and some people value the right. An addition to the diagram -- an RPG would be somewhere in between the two. Open world RPGs generally have one single linear quest, usually relatively short, but also have many problems, side quests, like the linear level bubbles. There's no grand solution to the game except to complete the overall problem - the primary quest. But all those other 'problem bubbles' would be interconnected, where your choices can determine the path you take; that could even ultimately be endless, circling around and around within the game world, exploring, never really completing that primary quest.
Anyway...

In short: (Good) Linear games do provide choices, multiple paths and routes that personalize the experience of solving the problem at hand.

*takes a breath*
*goes home*

http://halo.wikibruce.com/Halo_Reach



Message Index




Replies:

Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/27/10 7:31 p.m.
     Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Avateur 9/27/10 7:38 p.m.
           Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/27/10 7:54 p.m.
                 Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Leviathan 9/27/10 8:12 p.m.
                       Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/27/10 8:21 p.m.
                             Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 12:04 a.m.
                                   Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?thebruce0 9/28/10 8:40 a.m.
                                         Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?uberfoop 9/28/10 3:42 p.m.
                                               ..in which I blather on and on. With a diagram! :Pthebruce0 9/28/10 7:14 p.m.
                                                     Re: ..in which I blather on and on. With a diagramHawaiian Pig 9/28/10 7:35 p.m.
                                                           Re: ..in which I blather on and on. With a diagramthebruce0 9/29/10 8:32 a.m.
                                                                 Re: ..in which I blather on and on. With a diagramThorsHammer 9/29/10 10:57 a.m.
                                   Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/28/10 5:22 p.m.
                                         Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 5:34 p.m.
                                               Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Leviathan 9/28/10 6:16 p.m.
                                                     Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/28/10 6:33 p.m.
                                               Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/28/10 6:42 p.m.
                                                     Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 6:50 p.m.
                             Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Leviathan 9/28/10 12:45 a.m.
     Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Harmanimus 9/27/10 8:02 p.m.
           Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/27/10 8:38 p.m.
           Lots of great lines.Capt Spanish 9/27/10 11:09 p.m.
                 Re: Lots of great lines.Stephen L. (SoundEffect) 9/28/10 6:11 a.m.
                 Re: Lots of great lines.thebruce0 9/28/10 8:43 a.m.
                       Re: Lots of great lines.thebruce0 9/28/10 8:46 a.m.
           Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?General Battuta 9/28/10 12:47 a.m.
                 Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 1:01 a.m.
     Reach. *NM*stan 9/27/10 9:08 p.m.
           Eh, that's kind of a reach. *NM*SonofMacPhisto 9/27/10 9:29 p.m.
           How did you reach that conclusion? *NM*ArteenEsben 9/27/10 11:18 p.m.
     The main character is Reach *NM*Samus 117 9/27/10 9:19 p.m.
     In line with my thoughts, too. *NM*Kermit 9/27/10 9:59 p.m.
     Six is.Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 12:01 a.m.
           Re: Six is.General Battuta 9/28/10 12:52 a.m.
                 Re: Six is.Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 12:57 a.m.
                       Re: Six is.Avateur 9/28/10 12:58 a.m.
                             Re: Six is.General Battuta 9/28/10 1:00 a.m.
                                   Re: Six is.uberfoop 9/28/10 1:03 a.m.
     Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Cody Miller 9/28/10 12:25 a.m.
           Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?thebruce0 9/28/10 8:54 a.m.
                 Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Cody Miller 9/28/10 7:36 p.m.
                       Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?thebruce0 9/29/10 8:33 a.m.
     Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?ArteenEsben 9/28/10 12:41 a.m.
           Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 12:55 a.m.
                 Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?General Battuta 9/28/10 1:02 a.m.
                       Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 1:07 a.m.
                             Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?thebruce0 9/28/10 8:59 a.m.
                 Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Kermit 9/28/10 5:38 a.m.
                       Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 12:52 p.m.
                       Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?SonofMacPhisto 9/28/10 5:33 p.m.
                 Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Schedonnardus 9/28/10 9:57 a.m.
                 Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Trey 9/28/10 8:37 p.m.
                       Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?Hawaiian Pig 9/28/10 9:02 p.m.
           Re: Who is Reach's main character, anyway?uberfoop 9/28/10 1:07 a.m.
     Bob. *NM*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 9/29/10 9:59 a.m.
           Coming soon...thebruce0 9/29/10 10:15 a.m.
                 Re: Coming soon...Avateur 9/29/10 4:14 p.m.
                 Re: Coming soon...nash--housewares 9/29/10 4:29 p.m.



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