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Re: the 'seek not to conquer.." factor...?
Posted By: Sep7imus [subnova] <Sep7imus@subnova.com>Date: 12/1/04 2:59 p.m.

In Response To: the 'seek not to conquer.." factor...? (Zaknafein)

: I personally wasn't very 'taken' by the first Halo, actually, though I can
: see why some people were. Remember that interview with Joe Staten about a
: month back? He said that the reason people loved the first Halo was
: because the MC was like an empty container into which most people had no
: trouble inserting themselves. Since Halo 2 splits the gameplay between the
: MC and the Arbiter, it loses the ability to do this. I believe this is one
: of the reasons people are noticing 'something missing' (though,
: personally, I like this much better than playing just as the MC).
: Something else in the original that made it so popular was the 'Seek not to
: conquer, but to destroy' factor. In Halo 1, the Covenant were a faceless
: enemy, driven by an unknown force to wipe out humanity - much like the
: Fallen Lords in Myth. I have noticed many complaints about having to
: identify with the Covenant in Halo 2.

I'll take advantage of this to re-post something I posted elsewhere. If you've read that post, don't bother reading this, because it's the exact same thing (and it's not reallly addressed to Zaknafein, with whom it tends to agree more than disagree, but he brought up the same point, and I wanted to chime in).

This seems to be a pretty common sentiment. And, without trying to change your particular opinion, I want to try to provide the argument in favor of the Arbiter levels/story. Please don't take it personally; it's not intended as an attack on you, just as a response to a fairly prevalent sentiment. (This isn't an argument about whether they are cool levles or not, as far as I'm concerned. It's about the storyline dynamics.)

The thing that the Arbiter storyline does is complicate the story exponentially. Some people want that and some don't.

It was pretty easy to play through Halo with a basically "Humans=good / Aliens=bad" attitude (not that everyone did so, as the extensive story speculation here at HBO indicates). The two "twists" in the game didn't do anything to upset that simple binary distinction. In fact, they reinforced it. You run into the Flood which are basically the EVEN MORE mindless, EVEN MORE bad aliens (where the Covenant have religious ideology that we don't understand or even care to understand, the Flood have some kind of hive-mind/hunger that we CAN'T understand). You also run into 343GS who at first seems to break the mold by being a helpful non-human, until it turns out that he's even more mindlessly destructive in his programming than the Flood are in their hunger and the Covenant are in their ideology.

That kind of simplistic good guys vs. bad guys thing is REALLY easy to identify with (which is why it's such a popular formula for fiction of all types). It accounted, for a large part, for the easy identification with MC in Halo. (The fact that he lacked any specific charactersitics to connect him to a particular type of person made him more "universally" identified with, as long as you were human.)

In Halo 2 they mess with that. Although they avoid having you play as a Covie who is killing humans, they screw up the idea that all Aliens are bad/bent on the destruction of the human race. And, they force you to play as one of them. THAT is a real complication, not just on the plot level or the throw-yet-another-alien-race-in-there level, but on an emotional and intellectual level. Now you have to ask yourself things like "Which aliens are really bent on the destruction of humanity?" ; "Why don't the Covenant offer to allow humans to join them" (as one character actually asks in the game) ; "What is the Prophet's motivation? Do they really know what the rings do, or do they believe in the Great Journey? Are they duping the rest of the Covenant into believing their religious ideology, or do they themselves believe it?" Halo 2, perhaps at the expense of easy identification, breaks down the easy idea that everyone who isn't like us (humans) is bad and wants to kill us. I like that about it.

[Incidentally, one of the things that I like about the ilovebees story is that it goes even further. Where Halo 2 messes up the idea that Alien=bad, ilovebees messes up the idea that Human=good. Heck, it even messes up the idea that MasterChief=human. THAT's complexity!]

-Sep7imus

Message Index



Replies:

A few deep breaths *SP*ragereset 11/30/04 1:19 a.m.
     True, true *NM* *NM*7h3_h0ck3y_w1z 11/30/04 2:10 a.m.
     Re: more post-game carnage reportR.G. 11/30/04 5:44 a.m.
           Re: more post-game carnage ^^^ *SP* above! ^^^ *NM*R.G. 11/30/04 5:50 a.m.
           Re: more post-game carnage reportragereset 12/1/04 6:13 a.m.
                 Re: more post-game carnage reportMr Sniggles 12/1/04 5:39 p.m.
                       Re: more post-game carnage reportBlitzwolf 12/1/04 8:19 p.m.
           *chink* *NM*rolando 12/1/04 12:04 p.m.
           Re: more post-game carnage reportViscily II 12/1/04 3:41 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Kermit 11/30/04 6:48 a.m.
     I Only Have a Couple Sentences to Say About This..Mintz08 11/30/04 7:31 a.m.
           Ditto, both. :) *NM*Blitzwolf 12/1/04 8:03 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Ross Mills [subnova] 11/30/04 8:43 a.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Louis Wu 11/30/04 10:57 a.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*ragereset 11/30/04 12:59 p.m.
                 Agreed.MikeMan445 11/30/04 6:19 p.m.
                       Re: Agreed.box 12/1/04 11:58 a.m.
                             BULLSEYE!Siva Wr'k 12/1/04 1:41 p.m.
                                   Re: BULLSEYE!Siva Wr'k 12/1/04 1:44 p.m.
                                         Re: BULLSEYE!Qonas 12/1/04 10:41 p.m.
                                               Couldn't have said it better myself *NM* *NM*box 12/2/04 10:21 a.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Wado SG 11/30/04 4:38 p.m.
                 Yes, agreed. Too much story in one game to digest *NM*Siva Wr'k 12/1/04 1:47 p.m.
                       Re: Yes, agreed. Too much story in one game to digQonas 12/2/04 4:41 p.m.
           Hmm... *SP*Saint [lpn] 11/30/04 8:05 p.m.
                 EVERYTHING and BETTERSuddenDark.com 12/1/04 11:45 a.m.
                       Re: EVERYTHING and BETTEREl Bastard 12/1/04 11:50 a.m.
                             Re: EVERYTHING and BETTERSuddenDark.com 12/1/04 1:08 p.m.
                                   Re: EVERYTHING and BETTERmercury 12/1/04 4:34 p.m.
                       YES, YES, YES!Blitzwolf 12/1/04 10:08 p.m.
           Re: Why I think that happened *pseudo-review* *SP*ThorsHammer 11/30/04 10:41 p.m.
                 Re: Why I think that happened *pseudo-review* *SP*Sep7imus [subnova] 12/1/04 9:47 a.m.
                       Only on Xboxragereset 12/1/04 1:03 p.m.
                 What I felt was missing:ChiperSoft 12/1/04 12:46 p.m.
                 Extension on that...axman 12/1/04 1:07 p.m.
                       Bingo. *NM*Siva Wr'k 12/1/04 1:52 p.m.
                       Re: Extension on that...box 12/1/04 8:04 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*FriendlyFire 12/1/04 8:35 a.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Capain Spark 12/1/04 10:50 a.m.
                 Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Capo Rip 12/1/04 6:44 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*TD MasterChief 12/1/04 11:09 a.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*El Bastard 12/1/04 11:18 a.m.
           the 'seek not to conquer.." factor...?Zaknafein 12/1/04 2:05 p.m.
                 Re: the 'seek not to conquer.." factor...?Sep7imus [subnova] 12/1/04 2:59 p.m.
                       My sentiments exactly. Well said. =D *NM*Zaknafein 12/1/04 3:42 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Stuart 12/1/04 2:25 p.m.
           Remember where in the game you enjoyed it the mostMthdDirector 12/1/04 2:26 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Viscily II 12/1/04 4:15 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*'Nosolee 12/1/04 5:33 p.m.
           I think, I've figured out what's missing. *SP*Blitzwolf 12/1/04 8:43 p.m.
                 Re: I think, I've figured out what's missing. *SP*igniter 12/1/04 11:17 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Ducain 12/1/04 10:13 p.m.
                 Re: Analog plasma pistolragereset 12/1/04 11:09 p.m.
                 Re: A few deep breaths *SP*ThorsHammer 12/1/04 11:15 p.m.
                       Re: A few deep breaths *SP* True!Ducain 12/2/04 3:51 p.m.
           I just can't help but point out....Konrad 12/2/04 8:27 p.m.
                 Burn. *NM*Zero Flaw (E Nomini Patri) 12/2/04 8:35 p.m.
                 bad second quotegspawn 12/2/04 8:39 p.m.
     Re: Of Repetition *SP*Sep7imus [subnova] 11/30/04 5:06 p.m.
     my two cents. *sp*B-Sharp 11/30/04 6:34 p.m.
           Two more centsragereset 11/30/04 11:14 p.m.
                 Re: Two more cents to your two more centspaladin2007 12/1/04 11:24 a.m.
                 Re: Two more centschaosknight514 12/1/04 4:36 p.m.
                 Something else to think about...B-Sharp 12/1/04 4:59 p.m.
           My Opinionjac170sd 12/1/04 4:48 p.m.
                 Re: My OpinionB-Sharp 12/1/04 5:46 p.m.
     I have a few legitimate critiquesNoir 12/1/04 10:25 a.m.
           Another $0.02Smitty 12/1/04 2:41 p.m.
     keep taking those deep breathsMasterGrunt_Yayap-117 12/1/04 10:50 a.m.
           Re: keep taking those deep breathsbungiefan 12/1/04 11:35 a.m.
     Deep breaths - vitriol free.Dazza 12/1/04 11:30 a.m.
           Re: Deep breaths - vitriol free.Sep7imus [subnova] 12/1/04 11:41 a.m.
                 Re: Deep breaths - vitriol free.Dazza 12/1/04 11:46 a.m.
                       Re: Deep breaths - vitriol free.Sep7imus [subnova] 12/1/04 11:49 a.m.
                             Re: Deep breaths - vitriol free.Dazza 12/1/04 11:51 a.m.
                 Re: Deep breaths - vitriol free.Capain Spark 12/1/04 11:55 a.m.
           What do/did we want from Halo 2.. and forH3 *long*3Suns 12/2/04 9:15 p.m.
     Noteable "community" figuresWRATHofGOD 12/1/04 1:10 p.m.
           Hrm...El Bastard 12/1/04 1:54 p.m.
                 Re: Hrm...GhaleonEB 12/1/04 2:44 p.m.
                       Re: Hrm...WRATHofGOD 12/1/04 3:49 p.m.
           Re: Noteable "community" figs & rampant fanboismR.G. 12/1/04 4:30 p.m.
           Sounds like someone has a bone to pick. :)Louis Wu 12/1/04 7:27 p.m.
                 Re: Sounds like someone has a bone to pick. :)WRATHofGOD 12/2/04 7:57 a.m.
           Re: Noteable "community" figuresCapo Rip 12/2/04 1:39 a.m.
     A great but imperfect gameFoolsRun 12/1/04 2:53 p.m.
           Said perfectly! Minor gripes from me below! *NM*Jamirus99 12/1/04 3:28 p.m.
           Re: A great but imperfect gamebungiefan 12/1/04 3:30 p.m.
                 The sum of its parts are greater than the wholeFoolsRun 12/1/04 5:34 p.m.
           Great post! True, this will make Halo 3 better. *NM*Siva Wr'k 12/1/04 4:08 p.m.
           Re: A great but imperfect gameInky 12/1/04 9:57 p.m.
           Excellent Review. thanks for posting it. *NM*R.G. 12/2/04 12:51 a.m.
           A Final Note to BungieVadcol 12/2/04 12:53 a.m.
     My thoughts on Halo 2 (To boot) *SP*Jamirus99 12/1/04 3:23 p.m.
     Better the second time aroundKilgoreTrout XL 12/1/04 3:25 p.m.
     Absolutely Brilliant. I Totally Agree... *NM*Bluestone 12/1/04 3:42 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Capo Rip 12/1/04 4:07 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Arc 12/1/04 5:10 p.m.
                 So true...Capo Rip 12/1/04 6:18 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Seraph 12/1/04 5:09 p.m.
           Re: A few deep breaths *SP*MthdDirector 12/1/04 7:10 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Hieros 12/1/04 5:58 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*comicbookguy 12/1/04 6:19 p.m.
     in regard to MP *img*retsamolah 12/1/04 6:49 p.m.
           Not All the Way, Spray and Pray:Jamirus99 12/1/04 7:43 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Knight Premier 12/1/04 6:53 p.m.
           it's smarter than mespaartan117 12/1/04 7:43 p.m.
     Randy Glass and Halo 2 hatersBey Bey Bey 12/1/04 7:48 p.m.
           Re: Randy Glass and Halo 2 hatersSep7imus [subnova] 12/1/04 8:16 p.m.
           Re: Randy Glass and Halo 2 hatersR.G. 12/1/04 11:13 p.m.
                 OK, I'm done, gotta call it a niteMiguel Chavez 12/2/04 1:16 a.m.
                       Ditto,...Ross Mills [subnova] 12/2/04 8:12 a.m.
                 Auteur! Auteur! Magnifique! *NM*Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 12/2/04 7:53 a.m.
                 Re: Bravo! *NM*Sep7imus [subnova] 12/2/04 9:01 a.m.
                 Re: Randy Glass and Halo 2 hatersQonas 12/2/04 4:43 p.m.
                       Re: Randy Glass and Halo 2 hatersMothergoat 12/3/04 8:47 a.m.
           what everyone should do is...fludblud 12/2/04 7:08 a.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Dundre 12/1/04 8:44 p.m.
     All I want for christmasTrevor Austin 12/1/04 9:47 p.m.
     I think that we're out of focus here.*THASF* A.K.A. The Halo and Sonic Fan 12/1/04 10:17 p.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Traize 12/2/04 7:49 a.m.
     Re: A few deep breaths *SP*Chaka 12/2/04 7:03 p.m.



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