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Re: Don't bash Carmack
Posted By: Jägermeister <kablam@edmail.com>	Date: 2/13/00 3:30 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Don't bash Carmack (menace) > I have. I can't get higher than 20-30fps (max) on my computer in > UT no matter what settings I use (and average is 10-15fps). Try harder. And we are both talking about the Mac version, I assume? > Yup. I've seen it many times. Machinegun, gauntlet, whatever. RL > does NOT necessarily rule in Q3--which you'd know IF YOU'D EVER > EVEN BOTHERED TO PLAY THE DAMN GAME!!!!! (or even watch demos of > good players, especially in team games) This question didn't need to be answered again. Read the thread before posting, please. > HAHAHAHAAHA! So now you admit that you have NO IDEA how well Q3 > actually performs on those same machines because you never even > got it to run... Jeez, you are SOOOOO FULL OF IT. And you're not? I think the fact that it wouldn't run at all says something... Be more polite with your comments, please. Note I haven't insulted YOU personally yet, and yet you have to me several times. > Yeah, that was pretty obvious from the beginning. Good of you to > finally admit it, and it would be REALLY REFRESHING if you > people wouldn't get up on a soapbox and make sweeping > pronouncements about things you don't know anything about. I said I haven't run it personally on my own machine. I've seen enough of it and played enough of it's predecessors to make my calls, though. > Heh, now that's not a very nice thing to say about someone who's > almost certainly a very nice person, I didn't know he was a nice person. It wasn't meant as an insult towards his character. However, as I understand it, he did almost all the art design for Quake 1, which was about the ugliest fps I'd seen in a LONG time. >not to mention an artist > with 1000 times the talent you could ever dream of. He's a professional, I'm not. Also, how can you make this statement, having never met ME or seen anything I'VE ever done?? I simply don't find his "game art" work very stylish... >Do you know > ANYTHING about the man? Do you even know what he does? Have you > seen any of his artwork? I should've been less blunt...I was talking about most of the stuff he's done for the Quake series (don't know if he worked on Doom or not, though if he did, the same comment applies)...he may very well be smothered by the lack of creative ability of others...I know that has ruined many pieces of art in the past. Regardless, if his designs for the Quake series are the same as or similar to the final products that were produced in the game, then my comment, as directed on his work in IDs games, still stands. > I don't really agree with this, FM did some cool level designs > for Marathon, and some ok web grahpics, but that's about all > I've seen from him. You must not be looking very hard. >He's a good artist, but hardly BETTER than > the artists employed by id, in my opinion. But it's also your opinion that the art in Quake is not monochromatic and is stylish. OPINION. >(His one Quake level, > for instance, was NOT terribly impressive, and not because of > Quake, since I know of a ton of great-looking, great-playing > custom Quake levels, despite the limitations of the > game--especially the fixed 256-color pallette) That's because Quake 1 REALLY sucked. > Yeah, this guy definitely has some talent. BETTER than id's > artists? No, just different. Different being the key word...again, more stylish, but this all seems grounded in opinion. It depends on what you think of gothic, monochrome color schemes as compared more modern, intricate patterns and greater variety of colors. > Heh. Again, your lack of experience of much beyond Marathon > becomes perfectly obvious... I'm not dissing the nardo guys, > they did some cool stuff, but nothing I've seen yet to put them > well above id's level or anything like that. This is just your opinion. It's not my "lack of experience," as you put it (BTW, I'd prefer that you don't direct a comment like that at me again...it's very insulting to a gamer, and based on false premise), it's the fact that I prefer more believeable, atmospheric "stuff" over the alternative. > And it would get pretty tiring to keep hearing you claim that > some "ok" shareware games etc. are really more > impressive than an achievement like Quake 3. Too bad. Most of the stuff made for Escape Velocity was MUCH more impressive than Quake 3, for several reasons: It was a different kind of game, not just "another fps," it had art that fit the game and made it feel "whole," ect... > Hmm, well if you want monochromatic color, look no further than > Marathon (almost 100% gray, other than a few splashes of bright > monochromatic green or bright monocrhomatic blue) This comment seems to indicate YOUR "lack of experience" with MARATHON. Look harder. >or UT (blech, > most levels are INCREDIBLY bland looking, It is duller than Marathon, but I think the main problem here is with the included maps, rather than the whole thing. I've seen a few VERY nice maps with UT lately, and few of them used new textures...I guess the game just has a lot of textures the mapmakers didn't use :( >Q3 looks extremely > colorful alongside that) I wouldn't go so far as to say THAT... It's still mostly light maps... >And there are a TON of really really > great textures in Q3. (There are actually a lot of really good > ones in Q2 as well, and a fair number--though not necessarily > the majority--from Q1 that are really great too.) Mostly opinion again. It's my opinion that the textures in the Quake series are too monochrome, and so far, I haven't seen much to deny this (btw, I still do agree with Mark on the senseless imagery of the latest game as well)... > Yes. I'd say I'm currently a "lapsed" artist, but I > was very active in drawing and painting back in high school, and > studied some more in college. I'm not as active in creating art > at the moment, but always have an eye out for intersting, > quality stuff. Good to know. I personally can't wait for Oni...;) > hehe, you have a LOT of gall to be putting yourself up on a > platform as an 'artist" (some evidence if your incredible > talent would be in order if you're going to make such a > claim...), when you have no problem making sweeping statements > about games that you have never even played? Keep the rudeness off the forums, and don't put pretty much the SAME thing in the SAME message TWICE. Also notice, not ONCE did I call myself an "incredibly talented artist," or "put myself up on a platform," I just said I was an artist, and as an artist, and that is a TRUE statement, I feel I have at least SOME of an artistic eye as such. You apparently didn't read the sentence that included the word "void," did you? > Well there's your lack of understanding again. The point isn't > killing (and please tell me that you never killed a BOB...), Not when it's important to keep them alive. Mostly just when they're in the way, or on the vidmaster's challenge, as it's an order ;). Also, you can't complete infinity WITHOUT killing Bobs, but it relates to the complex and compelling storyline... > it's a GAME that is most comparable to real-world sports, where > you score points in various ways against skilled opponents. It's > that challenge that is interesting, not the fact that the points > happen to be scored by "killing" other players. Well, here I was just going off the deep end because this trend for net-only games with no real solo play is really getting on my nerves, and I was arguing with someone about it...so I mostly apologize for this ;) > Besides which, based on personal experience of knowing a lot of > gamers, I'd be a lot more worried about people immersing > themselves in a fantasy world and building up an ersatz > personality there and taking the whole thing seriously (as in > Everquest, D&D, etc.--even though I used to play D&D a lot) I've heard of that, but never actually seen it... That sort of thing worries me too. >than > I would about a talent/skill-oriented game like online Quake. > Not that any of these activities are a problem for 99.95% of > people or necessarily lead to violent behavior or whatever, just > that I've never seen anyone let their *Quake character* I believe that's mostly an oxymoron ;D >take over > their lives as I've seen people lose track of reality when > immersed in RPGs. See above statement. > Ah, well then you have an EXTREMELY limited conception of the > term "game." Your definition seems to include ONLY > story-driven, immersive worlds intended to explore character > development, which is only a small subset of games. My > dictionary defines "game" as: 1) any form of play or > way of playing: amusement; recreation; sport; play. 2) any > specific amusement or sport involving copetition under specific > rules; as football and chess are "games." I don't have such a general definition of "game." In addition to all that (which I do agree with, btw), I'd also define games in "subsets," eg tactical/strategy games (thinking person's games), like chess, "sport" games (more basis on physical attributes than intelligence, though cleverness does figure in to some degree)...in computer terms, I'd define a game such as Marathon as more of a combination of a "sport" type game and an "intellectule" game...you need to brains to really appreciate it and not get bored with it and explore the story, whereas I'd say Quake is mostly just a "sport game..." mostly emphasis on FPS skills, little emphasis on cleverness (for good Quake players, it is probably more, rather than little, though I haven't seen very many of "the best..." I'm just taking a best guess here), and zero emphasis on intrigue/plot/"real mental stuff..." > Multiplayer Quake-style games clearly fall under the generic > primary definition, at least as much as role-playing games do, > and perfectly fit the more specific secondary definition. Yes. > Now it's perfeclty fair to have that preference--some people > enjoy playing sports, others prefer knitting, others prefer to > read novels or watch movies, others write poetry--whatever rocks > your boat. But it's this "nothing but what happens to fit > my personal preferences is worth a damn" attitude you've > got is pretty lame. I wasn't aware I had that attitude. I was just stating my own opinion, much as you are now (though clearly, much more politely) > Yawn. I might even have some respect for you if you'd stop > blathering about stuff you know nothing about. I'm really getting tired of this...you're starting to remind me of Judge Judy... > Heh, little do you know... ;) > But yes, I do put Quake on a very similar level to chess, and > certainly on the same level as billiards in terms of skill, > intellectual challenge, tactics, etc., if not moreso. And > tactically/strategically, I definitely put Quake teamplay on a > similar level to basketball, hockey, soccer, football, baseball, > or volleyball. It's not a physical, athletic activity, so I > hesitate to label it as a "sport" in the traditional > sense (though if bowling or billiards or darts qualified, Quake > certainly would also). We all have our preferences. I prefer something that REALLY challenges my intellect as well as my skill, while others prefer to have mostly their playing skills/abilities, and cleverness (I tend to set cleverness on a different plane from hard intellect, since I've seen some pretty dumb people in the past do things I'd call "clever") challenged instead. I never once said my opinion was better than anyone elses. It's just my opinion, and I was putting it forward. Honestly, I thought this thread was resolved, but this needed to be taken care of (your attitude also needed correction...sorry) (: Jägermeister :)

Message Index

Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	Louis Wu	2/9/00 12:58 p.m.
I think he's nuts	Mark Levin	2/9/00 1:20 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Dead Glory	2/9/00 1:31 p.m.
Ego Man!	Ragnarok	2/9/00 9:21 p.m.
SuperEgo. Hmmm. Freudian slip. (NT)	Dispatcher	2/9/00 11:10 p.m.
Don't bash Carmack	MacFury	2/10/00 12:08 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Ragnarok	2/10/00 12:57 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Maestro	2/10/00 4:30 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/10/00 4:57 a.m.
Actually, I think it's anything above 12b or so-nt	David Oosha	2/10/00 7:42 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Ragnarok	2/10/00 1:10 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Johnny Rotten	2/10/00 1:35 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Mark Levin	2/10/00 2:04 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Johnny Rotten	2/10/00 3:00 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/10/00 8:06 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Redox	2/10/00 9:42 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Louis Wu	2/12/00 4:52 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/10/00 10:43 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Mark Levin	2/11/00 12:02 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Nijhazer	2/10/00 2:51 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/10/00 8:07 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/10/00 2:26 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Johnny Rotten	2/10/00 3:06 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/10/00 3:25 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Johnny Rotten	2/10/00 3:38 p.m.
UT has better skins, IMHO	MacGuyver	2/10/00 4:54 p.m.
Re: UT has better skins, IMHO	menace	2/10/00 9:46 p.m.
Re: Q3 may have better skins alone...	Mark Levin	2/10/00 10:29 p.m.
good point Re: Q3 may have better skins alone...	menace	2/10/00 10:33 p.m.
Re: good point Re: Q3 may have better skins alone.	Jägermeister	2/11/00 2:20 p.m.
Re: good point Re: Q3 may have better skins alone.	menace	2/13/00 7:38 a.m.
Re: good point Re: Q3 may have better skins alone.	Jägermeister	2/13/00 3:34 p.m.
Cognitive Dissonance	Redox	2/10/00 10:37 p.m.
Re: Cognitive Dissonance	menace	2/10/00 10:53 p.m.
Re: Cognitive Dissonance	Redox	2/10/00 11:04 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/11/00 2:26 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Johnny Rotten	2/11/00 4:43 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/11/00 4:58 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/11/00 11:42 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/13/00 6:27 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/13/00 7:52 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/13/00 7:59 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/13/00 11:28 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/10/00 10:30 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	PowerMan	2/10/00 4:46 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/10/00 10:07 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Giule	2/11/00 8:14 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/11/00 10:56 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	8Delicious	2/11/00 11:33 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/13/00 6:45 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	8Delicious	2/14/00 7:41 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/10/00 10:04 p.m.
*Sniff* people can be so mean... (NT)	Iku-Turso	2/11/00 12:10 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/11/00 2:15 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/11/00 11:36 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/12/00 2:32 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/12/00 3:44 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/12/00 2:48 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Dan Rudolph	2/12/00 10:49 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/12/00 11:37 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/13/00 7:34 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/13/00 7:25 a.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/13/00 3:30 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	menace	2/14/00 2:37 a.m.
Can we grow up now please?	Mark Levin	2/14/00 9:12 a.m.
Not to mention...	Nijhazer	2/14/00 9:24 a.m.
Re: Not to mention...	menace	2/14/00 11:33 a.m.
OT	Nijhazer	2/14/00 12:31 p.m.
thx Re: OT	menace	2/14/00 11:45 p.m.
Re: Don't bash Carmack	Jägermeister	2/14/00 1:32 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Nijhazer	2/9/00 2:22 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Desio	2/9/00 6:30 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	sarwat	2/9/00 2:40 p.m.
Re: I think he's upset	- - [ - - - - - - Tycho - - - - - - ] - -	2/9/00 2:50 p.m.
Errr...	Xian	2/9/00 3:24 p.m.
Re: well crap	- - [ - - - - - - Tycho - - - - - - ] - -	2/9/00 5:56 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Mark Levin	2/9/00 3:33 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Daniel å•---- Transmission Er®-–*ß*¬°ßå 7 14 21 28	2/9/00 10:19 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Giule	2/9/00 2:47 p.m.
Re: About Id and Bungie..	Dalan Galma	2/9/00 6:05 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	David Oosha	2/9/00 8:33 p.m.
that guy Carmack	Mad Pad	2/10/00 9:06 a.m.
Re: that guy Carmack	menace	2/10/00 9:03 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Dan Rudolph	2/10/00 12:08 a.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Johnny Rotten	2/10/00 1:04 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Mark Levin	2/10/00 2:03 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Johnny Rotten	2/10/00 3:14 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Nijhazer	2/10/00 6:00 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Johnny Rotten	2/11/00 12:19 p.m.
Re: I think he's nuts	Nijhazer	2/11/00 12:41 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	Br'fin	2/9/00 1:49 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	sarwat	2/9/00 2:30 p.m.
Wolf3D to Pathways? I think UU moreso	menace	2/10/00 8:51 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo, I comment on Carmack	8Delicious	2/9/00 2:19 p.m.
Something that bothers me...	Nijhazer	2/9/00 2:27 p.m.
Re: Something that bothers me...	menace	2/10/00 8:44 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	Michael Ash	2/9/00 2:55 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	menace	2/10/00 8:38 p.m.
What do you guys expect him to say?	Xian	2/9/00 3:07 p.m.
Re: What do you guys expect him to say?	8Delicious	2/10/00 6:11 a.m.
Re: What do you guys expect him to say?	menace	2/10/00 8:27 p.m.
Re: What do you guys expect him to say?	8Delicious	2/11/00 10:58 a.m.
That's fair.	Forensic	2/9/00 3:41 p.m.
Re: That's fair.	Daniel å•---- Transmission Er®-–*ß*¬°ßå 7 14 21 28	2/9/00 10:31 p.m.
Re: That's fair.	menace	2/10/00 8:19 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	Devil Warrior	2/9/00 3:55 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	menace	2/10/00 8:16 p.m.
Carmack comments on Halo	AlphaNumeric	2/9/00 8:57 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo	menace	2/10/00 8:10 p.m.
"ID's Mac Shadow"?! He's crazy.	Daniel å•---- Transmission Er®-–*ß*¬°ßå 7 14 21 28	2/9/00 10:15 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	Maestro	2/9/00 10:40 p.m.
There are a few other types of games.... NT	Sempiternity	2/10/00 12:23 p.m.
Bungie's Agenda	Br'fin	2/10/00 2:09 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	Matt	2/10/00 11:52 a.m.
Werdup!(nt)	Maestro	2/10/00 6:32 p.m.
Re: Carmack comments on Halo... what do you think?	Forensic, Voodoo Extreme version.	2/10/00 9:35 p.m.
Next On Celeberty Deathmach, Caramac VS Jones n/t	Adeamus	2/10/00 10:16 p.m.
Calm Down	Case	2/10/00 8:29 p.m.
I agree, why is everyone getting into a huff? (nt)	Freewill	2/11/00 12:24 a.m.
Cleanse with haiku!	MacGuyver	2/11/00 11:44 a.m.
Cleanse with haiku!	8Delicious	2/11/00 12:50 p.m.
Re: Cleanse with haiku!	Jägermeister	2/11/00 1:20 p.m.
beware of the iamb!	8Delicious	2/11/00 2:48 p.m.
Storied PC FPS:	Ramses II	2/11/00 2:41 a.m.
Re: Storied PC FPS:	Ragnarok	2/11/00 11:14 a.m.
Re: Calm Down	Giule	2/11/00 6:56 a.m.
Re: Calm Down	Giule	2/11/00 6:56 a.m.
Re: Calm Down	Giule	2/11/00 6:58 a.m.
I did not write that...	Jaime	2/11/00 10:03 a.m.
Who are You?	8Delicious	2/11/00 12:35 p.m.
Re: Who are You?	Nijhazer	2/11/00 12:40 p.m.
Re: I did not write that...	Case (non-Bungie)	2/11/00 8:20 p.m.
Apoligezs (Sp?)	Ragnarok	2/11/00 11:22 a.m.