Re: Draft 1 Wireframe

I am extremely sorry about this wall of text and the fact that I am replying to the whole conversation (since my last reply) in one post instead of many. To sum up this post quickly:

Using Marathon UI elements could affect the readability of the design in a negative way. Function over form.

White space is good

We need to decide on the focuses on the site and prioritize them.

Hamish is right. "Create a new vibrant dynamic page with currently active community sites, showing people that Marathon is not dead."

Marathon UI Inspired Theme

I am not that keen on the idea of theming the site design so heavily on more than 15 year old GUI elements.

form over function or function over form?

So far, every attempt I've seen which tries translating the Marathon interface elements into web design has usually ended very badly. Simply given the fact that the marathon interface elements (sadly) aren't that big on stuff like readability, typography and other similar ideas that are needed when it comes to design on the web. I would say it's in theory possible to make a good Marathon themed web design but it would A. be extremely challenging and B. would require us to change a whole lot of things regarding the original elements like margins, typography, colors and such.

When it comes to web designs, I would say that it should be function over form. Focus should be put on readability.

Busyness?
: More links will just make the right sidebar get longer, filling in the negative space there. Why would that make things hard on the brain?

"White space should not be considered merely 'blank' space — it is an important element of design which enables the objects in it to exist at all, the balance between positive (or non-white) and the use of negative spaces is key to aesthetic composition.
When space is at a premium, such as some types of magazine, newspaper, and yellow pages advertising, white space is limited in order to get as much vital information on to the page as possible. A page crammed full of text or graphics with very little white space runs the risk of appearing busy, cluttered, and is typically difficult to read. Some designs compensate for this problem through the careful use of leading and typeface."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_space_(visual_arts)
http://www.logoorange.com/white-space.php

If i am not mistaken, White/negative space would be considered a good thing. (or at least a good balance between negative and positive space) A good example was the website redesign for Eve Online done couple of months ago. The old website followed the good old 3+ column layout where negative space was sacrificed on the altar for the sake of having all the content on the front page. At first it worked out nicely but throughout the years it had started getting way too cluttered as CCP incrementally added content elements to the design.

http://web.archive.org/web/20110224222539/http://www.eveonline.com/

The Eve Online web team realized that this was causing it difficult for new users to navigate and use the website as they were simply being bombarded with too much information. The website was trying to favor everyone and do everything at the same time. And it was affecting everyone negatively. They decided that they needed to simplify the website, and decide on which part to focus on (in this case, their main focus was to sell the game) and then putting less important (and more involving) things a click away. (or a scroll away) The website still has all of its original functionalities and content. But it has been prioratized. The index page is more like a foreword to a long research paper which gives you the taste of what it is all about and a little bit of a guide to how to get through the paper. It gives you the tools needed to quickly get to the most important things but if you want to delve deeper you are only couple of clicks away.

http://www.eveonline.com/

Focus, Priorities

With this said, we need to decide what the primary focus of the website is going to be. Should it sell the game/community and favor getting new players or should it favor the old players? I don't know about you guys but I rarely use marathon.bungie.org as a gateway to other sites. I did so in the early days but not anymore as I know all the urls by memory or have them bookmarked. (or perhaps i don't use it anymore because the majority of the links are dead or simply don't matter anymore)

: The thing is that there are multiple focuses of the site. It needs to serve as an introduction to Marathon for people who are brand new here and have no idea what this is about. But it also needs to serve as a news site for people already familiar with it, without the "Hey this is what Marathon is" jumping in their face every time they visit. And Hamish made it clear that he wants it to function as a portal site as well, so I think pushing the links to the bottom would defeat that purpose.

Do we have anywhere statistics about the usage of the Marathon.bungie.org page? How people use it and so on? Could be helpful in our case in finding out how people use it and how we can leverage it (or change)

Again, I mention what I said previously, I would strongly recommend prioritizing those focuses of MBO. If they are all competing against each other they will all suffer from it.

: Which brings us back to the point of this sub-thread in particular, which was to discuss what content gets priority; what deserves to be a main nav link and what just goes in with other links elsewhere; or whether we should even be making such a distinction.

Yes, we should and we need to make this distinction. We need to weed out the websites that simply are not in use now a days (Recruits) to make the important sites shine. (spoiler guide, the forums, simplicity, and so on) This is not to say that those sites should be trashed or not linked at all. But I recommend a "more..." link which would lead to a page which would map out the marathon community completely. Past and present. (and perhaps even links to wayback machine snapshots of dead pages for the sake of historical archiving?)

or like Hamish said.

: Option 2: Create a new vibrant dynamic page with currently active community sites, showing people that Marathon is not dead.

: My vote would be Option 2.

Your Name:

Your E-Mail Address:

Subject:

Message:

:  I am extremely sorry about this wall of text and the fact that I am replying 
: to the whole conversation (since my last reply) in one post instead of 
: many. To sum up this post quickly:   Using Marathon UI elements could 
: affect the readability of the design in a negative way. Function over 
: form. 
:  White space is good 
:  We need to decide on the focuses on the site and prioritize them. 
:  Hamish is right. "Create a new vibrant dynamic page with currently 
: active community sites, showing people that Marathon is not dead."

:  Marathon UI Inspired Theme 
:  I am not that keen on the idea of theming the site design so heavily on more 
: than 15 year old GUI elements.

: form over function or function over form?

: So far, every attempt I've seen which tries translating the Marathon 
: interface elements into web design has usually ended very badly. Simply 
: given the fact that the marathon interface elements (sadly) aren't that 
: big on stuff like readability, typography and other similar ideas that are 
: needed when it comes to design on the web. I would say it's in theory 
: possible to make a good Marathon themed web design but it would A. be 
: extremely challenging and B. would require us to change a whole lot of 
: things regarding the original elements like margins, typography, colors 
: and such.

: When it comes to web designs, I would say that it should be function over 
: form. Focus should be put on readability.

:  Busyness?

:   "White space should not be considered merely 'blank' space — it is an 
: important element of design which enables the objects in it to exist at 
: all, the balance between positive (or non-white) and the use of negative 
: spaces is key to aesthetic composition.

: When space is at a premium, such as some types of magazine, newspaper, and 
: yellow pages advertising, white space is limited in order to get as much 
: vital information on to the page as possible. A page crammed full of text 
: or graphics with very little white space runs the risk of appearing busy, 
: cluttered, and is typically difficult to read. Some designs compensate for 
: this problem through the careful use of leading and typeface." 
:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_space_ (visual_arts) 
:  http://www.logoorange.com/white-space.php

:  If i am not mistaken, White/negative space would be considered a good thing. 
: (or at least a good balance between negative and positive space) A good 
: example was the website redesign for Eve Online done couple of months ago. 
: The old website followed the good old 3+ column layout where negative 
: space was sacrificed on the altar for the sake of having all the content 
: on the front page. At first it worked out nicely but throughout the years 
: it had started getting way too cluttered as CCP incrementally added 
: content elements to the design.

:  http://web.archive.org/web/20110224222539/http ://www.eveonline.com/

: The Eve Online web team realized that this was causing it difficult for new 
: users to navigate and use the website as they were simply being bombarded 
: with too much information. The website was trying to favor everyone and do 
: everything at the same time. And it was affecting everyone negatively. 
: They decided that they needed to simplify the website, and decide on which 
: part to focus on (in this case, their main focus was to sell the game) and 
: then putting less important (and more involving) things a click away. (or 
: a scroll away) The website still has all of its original functionalities 
: and content. But it has been prioratized. The index page is more like a 
: foreword to a long research paper which gives you the taste of what it is 
: all about and a little bit of a guide to how to get through the paper. It 
: gives you the tools needed to quickly get to the most important things but 
: if you want to delve deeper you are only couple of clicks away.

:  http://www.eveonline.com/

:  Focus, Priorities 
:  With this said, we need to decide what the primary focus of the website is 
: going to be. Should it sell the game/community and favor getting new 
: players or should it favor the old players? I don't know about you guys 
: but I rarely use marathon.bungie.org as a gateway to other sites. I did so 
: in the early days but not anymore as I know all the urls by memory or have 
: them bookmarked. (or perhaps i don't use it anymore because the majority 
: of the links are dead or simply don't matter anymore)

:  Do we have anywhere statistics about the usage of the Marathon.bungie.org 
: page? How people use it and so on? Could be helpful in our case in finding 
: out how people use it and how we can leverage it (or change)

: Again, I mention what I said previously, I would strongly recommend 
: prioritizing those focuses of MBO. If they are all competing against each 
: other they will all suffer from it.

:  Yes, we should and we need to make this distinction. We need to weed out the 
: websites that simply are not in use now a days (Recruits) to make the 
: important sites shine. (spoiler guide, the forums, simplicity, and so on) 
: This is not to say that those sites should be trashed or not linked at 
: all. But I recommend a "more..." link which would lead to a page 
: which would map out the marathon community completely. Past and present. 
: (and perhaps even links to wayback machine snapshots of dead pages for the 
: sake of historical archiving?)

: or like Hamish said.

If you'd like to include a link to another page with your message,
please provide both the URL address and the title of the page:

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marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 3:29 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/18/12 7:20 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	MrM12LRV	2/18/12 7:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 8:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	2/18/12 10:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 10:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	Tycho	2/18/12 10:32 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/20/12 12:00 a.m.
Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/22/12 8:18 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/23/12 12:02 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 4:04 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:29 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	treellama	2/23/12 4:21 a.m.
Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdown	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:37 p.m.
Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:50 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 11:00 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:22 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	treellama	2/24/12 3:53 a.m.
Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 10:52 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/26/12 5:46 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 11:58 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:46 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/26/12 6:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 8:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/26/12 11:26 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:05 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/27/12 12:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	W'rkncacnter	2/27/12 7:45 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:27 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 3:35 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 8:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:24 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:42 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:16 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	brilliant	2/29/12 11:38 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 2:29 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:48 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 4:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 6:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 9:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 10:54 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 11:20 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/28/12 12:06 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 12:19 p.m.
Balance of issues	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 2:13 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:38 p.m.
On Process	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: On Process	treellama	2/29/12 4:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 4:50 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	Diogenes	2/28/12 5:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:40 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 1:25 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:33 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 7:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 9:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Tycho	2/28/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 10:44 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 11:28 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 9:46 a.m.
Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 12:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 4:41 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	W'rkncacnter	2/29/12 8:02 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 8:57 p.m.
check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	2/29/12 10:14 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:45 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:08 a.m.
...also	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:15 a.m.
Re: ...also	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:25 p.m.
Re: ...also	poena.dare	3/2/12 3:39 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 6:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns NM LINK	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 10:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/2/12 5:27 a.m.
Draft 5	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 11:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 5	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 5:08 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:29 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 11:38 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 11:12 a.m.
And they never paid me for it, either! NM	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 12:10 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/26/12 4:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:49 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 5:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:13 a.m.
Idea 2: Integration	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	treellama	2/24/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	W'rkncacnter	3/31/12 4:15 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	Godot	3/31/12 10:35 p.m.
Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:27 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	W'rkncacnter	2/23/12 8:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:13 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Tycho	2/25/12 6:10 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 11:01 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:07 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/24/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 10:43 a.m.
traxus overhaul	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 6:28 a.m.
Re: traxus overhaul	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:31 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/23/12 6:37 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	mchief111	2/23/12 7:01 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	2/23/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 8:57 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 6:41 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 7:50 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/3/12 6:56 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/3/12 7:23 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 8:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 9:44 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:05 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:19 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/3/12 11:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:18 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 11:25 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 7:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:25 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:45 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 9:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 9:27 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/4/12 10:48 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 6:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 4:33 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 12:26 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 4:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/4/12 4:51 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:31 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/5/12 5:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/5/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:28 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 10:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/5/12 11:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/6/12 12:55 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:57 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/5/12 2:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/5/12 6:09 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 2:56 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	3/4/12 6:38 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	3/4/12 7:06 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 7:35 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Hopper	3/4/12 10:09 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:34 a.m.
This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 12:04 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 2:35 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 2:40 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 5:31 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:30 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:21 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:17 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 9:45 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:04 a.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:17 a.m.


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