Balance of issues


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Balance of issues

Posted By: Forrest of B.org Date: 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Draft 1 Wireframe (W'rkncacnter)

: Yes, there does seem to be some debate about what links should show up, but
: so far I haven't seen anyone other than you say they like the marathon
: terminal color scheme for the webpage (it's possible I missed a post
: somewhere). On the other hand, several people have mentioned it's a bad
: idea. The fact that you haven't really acknowledged that gives the
: impression you're being too protective of your original idea and aren't
: willing to change. I'm not saying that is the case for sure, but that's
: the general feeling I'm getting, and apparently I'm not alone on this.
See my response "On Process" to Ryoko for comments on defensiveness and argument in general. Short version: arguing about things is a part of the process and the whole reason why I'm having this discussion instead of just doing what I want in private.
In regards to the color scheme, most of the arguments against so far amount to "I don't like it" (and I've had other people tell me "I like it!", so that's a mixed bag there), or "websites don't look like that anymore" (so what? not all websites have to look alike. is there a good reason why a web site shouldn't look that way?), and a couple fallacious arguments of the latter sort which I've specifically addressed (rounded buttons and gradients are outdated... when those are new features in the latest CSS spec). There have been some good points that I'm thinking about how to address (people who find light on black hard to read).
And there are more issues than just "what links to put where" being balanced between arguments in either direction. Off the top of my head:
- The color scheme.
* Besides me, poenas.dare thinks it should touch on old Marathon themes but not rigidly conform to them (I agree), Diogenes was suggesting using elements from the Aleph One Marathon theme (I disagree), Joho likes black backgrounds, and someone (poena.dare again?) said that reading black text on white was "like reading through a flashlight"
* You, Treellama, Ryoko and others have your objections to it, addressed above.
- Columns in the layout
* Joho seems to want one column. I wanted one originally, before other concerns came up. Hamish likes two better than three.
* Bob-B-Q liked three better than two. I switched from one to three to accomodate a concern I thought Hamish had and another concern that occurred to me, then back down to two after Hamish clarified.
- Fixed or fluid layout, and text columns
* One initial comment was happy that it now filled a 1024x768 monitor instead of the old fixed-800px(?) layout, and I intend a fluid layout to continue to address such concerns into the future. Ryoko (I think?) made mention of text columns in magazines as a way of keeping wide pages of text readable, and I tried a quick pass at implementing them in my last draft.
* Others are complaining that it looks horrible on wide screens, and Treellama especially seems to hate the text columns. I am not happy with the text columns myself, and I brainstorming other solutions that don't involve the lazy way of just fixing the width.
- Get Marathon
* poena.dare wants it gone completely, it seems, or completely out of the way of returning visitors at least. Treellama wants it a minimal link to SBO. I wanted it a single link to begin with, then changed my mind.
* Joho wants it the most prominent feature of the site, and someone else I don't recall agreed, I think. I rethought my initial position and decided it deserves its own aside on the main page, but should still be be out of the way.
- News
* Joho thinks it should be deprioritized so as not to distract from Get Marathon. Ryoko thinks it is an unimportant feature and there should be many fewer news posts on the front page.
* poena.dare seems to think it should be the main focus (if I understand him correctly), and Hamish has been busy posting news and apparently driving hits that way recently. I think at least one news item needs to be visible at initial page load, but can be flexible beyond that.
- Prioritizing links
* I think some links need to be featured more prominently than others, and Joho seems to agree even more vehemently.
* Hamish seems to think they should all be on equal footing.
- Old/dead links:
* Hamish sounded like he wanted all links on the front page to remain there, and I was defending his edict with a column of misc links.
* I initially wanted to shunt all non-main links into a separate page entirely. Joho seems to second that notion. Hamish now seems to be saying lets at least cull the links down to the live ones and split them into active and inactive, but keep them, deprioritized, on the main page, which I can agree with.
So I am listening, and my position is changing. I went from one column, seven links only (not intentional), Get Marathon and More links hidden behind two of those, the rest is news; to three-column, Get Marathon and More Links right there on the first page; down to two-column, Get Marathon right there on the first page and More Links deprioritized below it.
I wasn't even intending to be talking about color scheme and such window dressing yet, and only threw it on quickly to show Joho that three columns didn't have to be so busy if they were properly (de)emphasized with different styles, and then touched up that quick throw-together a bit when you all screamed "ew!" It is not meant to be a finished product yet, and I'm not even focusing hard on the style at this point; I'm just trying to nail down general layout and organization first.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 3:29 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 2/18/12 7:20 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org MrM12LRV 2/18/12 7:30 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 8:54 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Tycho 2/18/12 10:12 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 10:17 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK* Tycho 2/18/12 10:32 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 2/20/12 12:00 a.m.

Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 2/22/12 8:18 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/23/12 12:02 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 2/23/12 4:04 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:29 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org treellama 2/23/12 4:21 a.m.

Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdown Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:37 p.m.

Idea 1: Organization Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:50 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization Johannes Gunnar 2/23/12 11:00 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:22 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization treellama 2/24/12 3:53 a.m.

Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/25/12 10:52 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/26/12 5:46 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 11:58 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:46 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Diogenes 2/26/12 6:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 8:04 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/26/12 11:26 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:05 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/27/12 12:02 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 4:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/27/12 5:58 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK* W'rkncacnter 2/27/12 7:45 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:41 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 2:27 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/29/12 3:35 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/29/12 8:01 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 4:24 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:42 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:16 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe brilliant 2/29/12 11:38 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/27/12 2:29 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:48 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/28/12 4:31 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 6:44 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:22 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/28/12 9:40 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 10:54 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe W'rkncacnter 2/28/12 11:20 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Diogenes 2/28/12 12:06 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 12:19 p.m.

Balance of issues Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/28/12 2:13 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 6:38 p.m.

On Process Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.

Re: On Process treellama 2/29/12 4:22 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/28/12 4:50 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK* Diogenes 2/28/12 5:31 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 6:57 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:40 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:41 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 1:25 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 2:33 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 7:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 9:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Tycho 2/28/12 3:53 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 10:44 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 11:28 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:57 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 1:27 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe W'rkncacnter 2/28/12 9:46 a.m.

Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 12:40 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 2/29/12 4:41 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 2/29/12 7:28 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns W'rkncacnter 2/29/12 8:02 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 8:57 p.m.

check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Johannes Gunnar 2/29/12 10:14 p.m.

Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:45 p.m.

Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:08 a.m.

...also Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:15 a.m.

Re: ...also Forrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:25 p.m.

Re: ...also poena.dare 3/2/12 3:39 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/1/12 6:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns *NM* *LINK* Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 9:30 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/1/12 10:44 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:02 p.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/2/12 5:27 a.m.

Draft 5 Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 11:53 p.m.

Re: Draft 5 ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:01 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Diogenes 2/29/12 5:08 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:29 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Diogenes 2/29/12 11:38 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 10:18 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 11:12 a.m.

And they never paid me for it, either! *NM* Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 12:10 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/26/12 4:04 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:49 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 5:30 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:13 a.m.

Idea 2: Integration Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:12 p.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration treellama 2/24/12 4:03 a.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration W'rkncacnter 3/31/12 4:15 p.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration Godot 3/31/12 10:35 p.m.

Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:27 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification W'rkncacnter 2/23/12 8:37 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:37 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 4:13 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Tycho 2/25/12 6:10 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/25/12 11:01 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 4:07 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/24/12 10:29 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 10:43 a.m.

traxus overhaul ChristTrekker 2/23/12 6:28 a.m.

Re: traxus overhaul Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:31 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 2/23/12 6:37 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org mchief111 2/23/12 7:01 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 2/23/12 8:36 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org poena.dare 2/23/12 8:57 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org poena.dare 2/23/12 6:41 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org ChristTrekker 2/23/12 7:50 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/3/12 6:56 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/3/12 7:23 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 8:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK* W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 9:44 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:05 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:19 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 3/3/12 11:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:18 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 11:25 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:58 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 7:54 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 8:25 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 8:45 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 8:46 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 9:17 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 9:27 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 10:16 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/4/12 10:48 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 6:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 4:33 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 12:26 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 4:30 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 3/4/12 4:51 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 8:31 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/5/12 5:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/5/12 5:58 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:28 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 10:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/5/12 11:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/6/12 12:55 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:57 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/5/12 2:12 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/5/12 6:09 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/4/12 2:56 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 3/4/12 6:38 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Tycho 3/4/12 7:06 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 7:35 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Hopper 3/4/12 10:09 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:34 a.m.

This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/5/12 12:04 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... poena.dare 3/5/12 2:35 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/5/12 2:40 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... poena.dare 3/5/12 5:31 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:14 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:30 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:21 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:17 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 9:45 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/6/12 5:04 a.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/6/12 5:17 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

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: See my response "On Process" to Ryoko for comments on defensiveness : and argument in general. Short version: arguing about things is a part of : the process and the whole reason why I'm having this discussion instead of : just doing what I want in private. : In regards to the color scheme, most of the arguments against so far amount : to "I don't like it" (and I've had other people tell me "I : like it!", so that's a mixed bag there), or "websites don't look : like that anymore" (so what? not all websites have to look alike. is : there a good reason why a web site shouldn't look that way?), and a couple : fallacious arguments of the latter sort which I've specifically addressed : (rounded buttons and gradients are outdated... when those are new features : in the latest CSS spec). There have been some good points that I'm : thinking about how to address (people who find light on black hard to : read). : And there are more issues than just "what links to put where" being : balanced between arguments in either direction. Off the top of my head: - : The color scheme. : * Besides me, poenas.dare thinks it should touch on old Marathon themes but : not rigidly conform to them (I agree), Diogenes was suggesting using : elements from the Aleph One Marathon theme (I disagree), Joho likes black : backgrounds, and someone (poena.dare again?) said that reading black text : on white was "like reading through a flashlight" : * You, Treellama, Ryoko and others have your objections to it, addressed : above. : - Columns in the layout : * Joho seems to want one column. I wanted one originally, before other : concerns came up. Hamish likes two better than three. : * Bob-B-Q liked three better than two. I switched from one to three to : accomodate a concern I thought Hamish had and another concern that : occurred to me, then back down to two after Hamish clarified. : - Fixed or fluid layout, and text columns : * One initial comment was happy that it now filled a 1024x768 monitor instead : of the old fixed-800px(?) layout, and I intend a fluid layout to continue : to address such concerns into the future. Ryoko (I think?) made mention of : text columns in magazines as a way of keeping wide pages of text readable, : and I tried a quick pass at implementing them in my last draft. : * Others are complaining that it looks horrible on wide screens, and : Treellama especially seems to hate the text columns. I am not happy with : the text columns myself, and I brainstorming other solutions that don't : involve the lazy way of just fixing the width. : - Get Marathon : * poena.dare wants it gone completely, it seems, or completely out of the way : of returning visitors at least. Treellama wants it a minimal link to SBO. : I wanted it a single link to begin with, then changed my mind. : * Joho wants it the most prominent feature of the site, and someone else I : don't recall agreed, I think. I rethought my initial position and decided : it deserves its own aside on the main page, but should still be be out of : the way. : - News : * Joho thinks it should be deprioritized so as not to distract from Get : Marathon. Ryoko thinks it is an unimportant feature and there should be : many fewer news posts on the front page. : * poena.dare seems to think it should be the main focus (if I understand him : correctly), and Hamish has been busy posting news and apparently driving : hits that way recently. I think at least one news item needs to be visible : at initial page load, but can be flexible beyond that. : - Prioritizing links : * I think some links need to be featured more prominently than others, and : Joho seems to agree even more vehemently. : * Hamish seems to think they should all be on equal footing. : - Old/dead links: * Hamish sounded like he wanted all links on the front page : to remain there, and I was defending his edict with a column of misc : links. : * I initially wanted to shunt all non-main links into a separate page : entirely. Joho seems to second that notion. Hamish now seems to be saying : lets at least cull the links down to the live ones and split them into : active and inactive, but keep them, deprioritized, on the main page, which : I can agree with. : So I am listening, and my position is changing. I went from one column, seven : links only (not intentional), Get Marathon and More links hidden behind : two of those, the rest is news; to three-column, Get Marathon and More : Links right there on the first page; down to two-column, Get Marathon : right there on the first page and More Links deprioritized below it. : I wasn't even intending to be talking about color scheme and such window : dressing yet, and only threw it on quickly to show Joho that three columns : didn't have to be so busy if they were properly (de)emphasized with : different styles, and then touched up that quick throw-together a bit when : you all screamed "ew!" It is not meant to be a finished product : yet, and I'm not even focusing hard on the style at this point; I'm just : trying to nail down general layout and organization first.

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marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 3:29 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/18/12 7:20 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	MrM12LRV	2/18/12 7:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 8:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	2/18/12 10:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 10:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	Tycho	2/18/12 10:32 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/20/12 12:00 a.m.
Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/22/12 8:18 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/23/12 12:02 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 4:04 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:29 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	treellama	2/23/12 4:21 a.m.
Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdown	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:37 p.m.
Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:50 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 11:00 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:22 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	treellama	2/24/12 3:53 a.m.
Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 10:52 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/26/12 5:46 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 11:58 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:46 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/26/12 6:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 8:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/26/12 11:26 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:05 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/27/12 12:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	W'rkncacnter	2/27/12 7:45 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:27 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 3:35 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 8:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:24 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:42 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:16 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	brilliant	2/29/12 11:38 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 2:29 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:48 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 4:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 6:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 9:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 10:54 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 11:20 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/28/12 12:06 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 12:19 p.m.
Balance of issues	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 2:13 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:38 p.m.
On Process	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: On Process	treellama	2/29/12 4:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 4:50 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	Diogenes	2/28/12 5:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:40 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 1:25 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:33 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 7:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 9:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Tycho	2/28/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 10:44 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 11:28 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 9:46 a.m.
Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 12:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 4:41 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	W'rkncacnter	2/29/12 8:02 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 8:57 p.m.
check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	2/29/12 10:14 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:45 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:08 a.m.
...also	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:15 a.m.
Re: ...also	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:25 p.m.
Re: ...also	poena.dare	3/2/12 3:39 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 6:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns NM LINK	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 10:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/2/12 5:27 a.m.
Draft 5	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 11:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 5	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 5:08 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:29 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 11:38 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 11:12 a.m.
And they never paid me for it, either! NM	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 12:10 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/26/12 4:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:49 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 5:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:13 a.m.
Idea 2: Integration	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	treellama	2/24/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	W'rkncacnter	3/31/12 4:15 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	Godot	3/31/12 10:35 p.m.
Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:27 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	W'rkncacnter	2/23/12 8:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:13 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Tycho	2/25/12 6:10 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 11:01 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:07 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/24/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 10:43 a.m.
traxus overhaul	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 6:28 a.m.
Re: traxus overhaul	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:31 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/23/12 6:37 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	mchief111	2/23/12 7:01 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	2/23/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 8:57 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 6:41 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 7:50 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/3/12 6:56 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/3/12 7:23 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 8:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 9:44 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:05 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:19 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/3/12 11:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:18 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 11:25 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 7:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:25 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:45 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 9:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 9:27 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/4/12 10:48 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 6:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 4:33 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 12:26 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 4:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/4/12 4:51 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:31 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/5/12 5:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/5/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:28 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 10:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/5/12 11:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/6/12 12:55 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:57 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/5/12 2:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/5/12 6:09 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 2:56 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	3/4/12 6:38 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	3/4/12 7:06 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 7:35 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Hopper	3/4/12 10:09 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:34 a.m.
This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 12:04 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 2:35 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 2:40 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 5:31 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:30 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:21 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:17 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 9:45 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:04 a.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:17 a.m.



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	Message: : See my response "On Process" to Ryoko for comments on defensiveness : and argument in general. Short version: arguing about things is a part of : the process and the whole reason why I'm having this discussion instead of : just doing what I want in private. : In regards to the color scheme, most of the arguments against so far amount : to "I don't like it" (and I've had other people tell me "I : like it!", so that's a mixed bag there), or "websites don't look : like that anymore" (so what? not all websites have to look alike. is : there a good reason why a web site shouldn't look that way?), and a couple : fallacious arguments of the latter sort which I've specifically addressed : (rounded buttons and gradients are outdated... when those are new features : in the latest CSS spec). There have been some good points that I'm : thinking about how to address (people who find light on black hard to : read). : And there are more issues than just "what links to put where" being : balanced between arguments in either direction. Off the top of my head: - : The color scheme. : * Besides me, poenas.dare thinks it should touch on old Marathon themes but : not rigidly conform to them (I agree), Diogenes was suggesting using : elements from the Aleph One Marathon theme (I disagree), Joho likes black : backgrounds, and someone (poena.dare again?) said that reading black text : on white was "like reading through a flashlight" : * You, Treellama, Ryoko and others have your objections to it, addressed : above. : - Columns in the layout : * Joho seems to want one column. I wanted one originally, before other : concerns came up. Hamish likes two better than three. : * Bob-B-Q liked three better than two. I switched from one to three to : accomodate a concern I thought Hamish had and another concern that : occurred to me, then back down to two after Hamish clarified. : - Fixed or fluid layout, and text columns : * One initial comment was happy that it now filled a 1024x768 monitor instead : of the old fixed-800px(?) layout, and I intend a fluid layout to continue : to address such concerns into the future. Ryoko (I think?) made mention of : text columns in magazines as a way of keeping wide pages of text readable, : and I tried a quick pass at implementing them in my last draft. : * Others are complaining that it looks horrible on wide screens, and : Treellama especially seems to hate the text columns. I am not happy with : the text columns myself, and I brainstorming other solutions that don't : involve the lazy way of just fixing the width. : - Get Marathon : * poena.dare wants it gone completely, it seems, or completely out of the way : of returning visitors at least. Treellama wants it a minimal link to SBO. : I wanted it a single link to begin with, then changed my mind. : * Joho wants it the most prominent feature of the site, and someone else I : don't recall agreed, I think. I rethought my initial position and decided : it deserves its own aside on the main page, but should still be be out of : the way. : - News : * Joho thinks it should be deprioritized so as not to distract from Get : Marathon. Ryoko thinks it is an unimportant feature and there should be : many fewer news posts on the front page. : * poena.dare seems to think it should be the main focus (if I understand him : correctly), and Hamish has been busy posting news and apparently driving : hits that way recently. I think at least one news item needs to be visible : at initial page load, but can be flexible beyond that. : - Prioritizing links : * I think some links need to be featured more prominently than others, and : Joho seems to agree even more vehemently. : * Hamish seems to think they should all be on equal footing. : - Old/dead links: * Hamish sounded like he wanted all links on the front page : to remain there, and I was defending his edict with a column of misc : links. : * I initially wanted to shunt all non-main links into a separate page : entirely. Joho seems to second that notion. Hamish now seems to be saying : lets at least cull the links down to the live ones and split them into : active and inactive, but keep them, deprioritized, on the main page, which : I can agree with. : So I am listening, and my position is changing. I went from one column, seven : links only (not intentional), Get Marathon and More links hidden behind : two of those, the rest is news; to three-column, Get Marathon and More : Links right there on the first page; down to two-column, Get Marathon : right there on the first page and More Links deprioritized below it. : I wasn't even intending to be talking about color scheme and such window : dressing yet, and only threw it on quickly to show Joho that three columns : didn't have to be so busy if they were properly (de)emphasized with : different styles, and then touched up that quick throw-together a bit when : you all screamed "ew!" It is not meant to be a finished product : yet, and I'm not even focusing hard on the style at this point; I'm just : trying to nail down general layout and organization first.
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