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Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns
Posted By: Forrest of B.orgDate: 2/29/12 8:57 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns (RyokoTK)

The subtle visual changes I could get behind; no chrome on the sidebar, deemphasized red (though I would darken rather than desaturate so there is still some color there), no white lines on the header. I'm not attached to those at all and would be happy to play with them more later.

But your solution to the scaling problem is precisely the problem I'm trying to avoid: fixed page widths.

The problem at hand is, "How should the page content scale with window size?"

One solution is "Don't". Fix the page content to a specific size, and let the window be full of nothing if it's bigger than you expected, or have to scroll if it's smaller. This is easy, but lazy, and dates a page; the current mbo looks old in part because it's fixed to a screen size way smaller than is common these days, and Joho's EVE Online example is fixed to a screen size larger than some monitor sizes still commonly used and so appears to some users to be "jumping the gun" ("hey, some people still have smaller monitors!"). The web is not a fixed medium, so we shouldn't force the page to be a fixed size; it should adapt, somehow, to the size of the window.

Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower". This is the lazy form of fluid (non-fixed) layout design and is not ideal, but is still better than fixing to a specific width for all the above reasons. At least in this case the user is in control; the content will fit in his window one way or another, and the size of that window is up to him, though the content might not look the most awesome at some sizes; but he can always resize his window if that's a real bother, unlike fixed-width pages which you cannot resize to fit your larger or smaller window.

Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower, to a degree." Used min-width and max-width to let the page scale up and down to a limited extent. This mixes the problems and benefits of both of the above: within a given range, you have the benefits of the squeeze-or-stretch approach, and then beyond that you have the problems of the fixed-width approach. Increasing that range trades occurrences of fixed-width problems for occurrences of squeeze-or-stretch problems, and so this doesn't really provide a general solution. And while most recent browsers support this, it's still relatively new in the big scheme, and those which don't support it default to the second behavior above, though those users are most likely to have smaller screens to begin with.

Another solution, the best I've seen so far, is "split or merge columns". This combined all the benefits of squeeze-or-stretch up to a specified range, and then beyond that range.... the layout rearranges itself, instead of continuing to stretch or just stopping entirely. This does unfortunately enforce an effective min-width as well, however. This is an even newer behavior that's supported in all the latest browsers, but the standard it's in isn't even finalized yet. On those machines where it's not supported, it falls back to the second (squeeze-or-stretch) behavior, but again, those users are likely to have smaller monitors anyway.

I don't pretend that this list of solutions is exhaustive. I would love to see alternatives. If anyone finds a fluid layout out there that does something differently, please let me know. But fixed-width layouts just ignore the problem, they don't solve it.

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Replies:

marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/18/12 3:29 a.m.
     Re: marathon.bungie.orgBob-B-Q 2/18/12 7:20 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgMrM12LRV 2/18/12 7:30 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/18/12 8:54 a.m.
     Re: marathon.bungie.orgTycho 2/18/12 10:12 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/18/12 10:17 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK*Tycho 2/18/12 10:32 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 2/20/12 12:00 a.m.
     Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 2/22/12 8:18 p.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/23/12 12:02 a.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 2/23/12 4:04 a.m.
                 Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:29 p.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 2/23/12 4:21 a.m.
                 Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdownForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:37 p.m.
                       Idea 1: OrganizationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:50 p.m.
                             Re: Idea 1: OrganizationJohannes Gunnar 2/23/12 11:00 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 1: OrganizationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:22 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 1: Organizationtreellama 2/24/12 3:53 a.m.
                             Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/25/12 10:52 p.m.
                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/26/12 5:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 11:58 a.m.
                                               Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:46 p.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeDiogenes 2/26/12 6:39 p.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 8:04 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/26/12 11:26 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:05 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/27/12 12:02 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/27/12 4:39 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/27/12 5:58 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK*W'rkncacnter 2/27/12 7:45 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:41 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 2:27 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/29/12 3:35 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/29/12 8:01 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:39 p.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/27/12 4:24 a.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:42 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:16 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 Wireframebrilliant 2/29/12 11:38 p.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/27/12 2:29 p.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:48 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/28/12 4:31 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 6:44 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:22 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/28/12 9:40 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 10:54 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeW'rkncacnter 2/28/12 11:20 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 WireframeDiogenes 2/28/12 12:06 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 12:19 p.m.
                                                                                               Balance of issuesForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/28/12 2:13 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 6:38 p.m.
                                                                                               On ProcessForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: On Processtreellama 2/29/12 4:22 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/28/12 4:50 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK*Diogenes 2/28/12 5:31 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 6:57 a.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:40 p.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:41 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/28/12 1:25 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 2:33 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 7:03 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/28/12 9:03 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeTycho 2/28/12 3:53 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 10:44 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/28/12 11:28 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:57 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 1:27 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeW'rkncacnter 2/28/12 9:46 a.m.
                                                                 Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 2/29/12 12:40 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 2/29/12 4:41 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 2/29/12 7:28 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsW'rkncacnter 2/29/12 8:02 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 2/29/12 8:57 p.m.
                                                                                         check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.Johannes Gunnar 2/29/12 10:14 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:45 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:08 a.m.
                                                                                                           ...alsoJohannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:15 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: ...alsoForrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: ...alsopoena.dare 3/2/12 3:39 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 3/1/12 6:03 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns *NM* *LINK*Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 9:30 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 3/1/12 10:44 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:02 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 3/2/12 5:27 a.m.
                                                                                                           Draft 5Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 11:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Draft 5ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:01 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsDiogenes 2/29/12 5:08 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:29 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsDiogenes 2/29/12 11:38 a.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeBob-B-Q 2/28/12 10:18 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 11:12 a.m.
                                                                       And they never paid me for it, either! *NM*Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 12:10 p.m.
                                   Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/26/12 4:04 p.m.
                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:49 p.m.
                                               Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/27/12 5:30 a.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:13 a.m.
                       Idea 2: IntegrationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:12 p.m.
                             Re: Idea 2: Integrationtreellama 2/24/12 4:03 a.m.
                             Re: Idea 2: IntegrationW'rkncacnter 3/31/12 4:15 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 2: IntegrationGodot 3/31/12 10:35 p.m.
                       Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:27 p.m.
                             Re: Idea 3: UnificationW'rkncacnter 2/23/12 8:37 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:37 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 3: Unificationtreellama 2/24/12 4:13 a.m.
                                         Re: Idea 3: UnificationTycho 2/25/12 6:10 a.m.
                                               Re: Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/25/12 11:01 a.m.
                             Re: Idea 3: Unificationtreellama 2/24/12 4:07 a.m.
                                   Re: Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/24/12 10:29 a.m.
                                         Re: Idea 3: Unificationtreellama 2/24/12 10:43 a.m.
           traxus overhaulChristTrekker 2/23/12 6:28 a.m.
                 Re: traxus overhaulForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:31 p.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgBob-B-Q 2/23/12 6:37 a.m.
                 Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgmchief111 2/23/12 7:01 a.m.
                       Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 2/23/12 8:36 a.m.
                             Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgpoena.dare 2/23/12 8:57 a.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgpoena.dare 2/23/12 6:41 a.m.
                 Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgChristTrekker 2/23/12 7:50 a.m.
     Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/3/12 6:56 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/3/12 7:23 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/3/12 8:47 p.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK*W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 9:44 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/4/12 3:05 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/3/12 11:19 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 3/3/12 11:47 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/3/12 11:18 p.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgW'rkncacnter 3/3/12 11:25 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/3/12 11:58 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 7:54 a.m.
                                   Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/4/12 8:25 a.m.
                                         Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 8:45 a.m.
                                         Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/4/12 8:46 a.m.
                                               Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/4/12 9:17 a.m.
                                                     Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 9:27 a.m.
                                                           Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/4/12 10:16 a.m.
                                                                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgW'rkncacnter 3/4/12 10:48 a.m.
                                                           Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 6:20 p.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 4:33 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/4/12 12:26 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/4/12 4:30 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 3/4/12 4:51 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 8:31 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/5/12 5:47 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgW'rkncacnter 3/5/12 5:58 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:28 p.m.
                                   Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/5/12 10:20 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/5/12 11:20 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/6/12 12:55 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:57 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/5/12 2:12 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/5/12 6:09 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/4/12 2:56 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgBob-B-Q 3/4/12 6:38 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgTycho 3/4/12 7:06 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/4/12 7:35 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgHopper 3/4/12 10:09 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:34 a.m.
     This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/5/12 12:04 p.m.
           Re: This might be a little redundant...poena.dare 3/5/12 2:35 p.m.
                 Re: This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/5/12 2:40 p.m.
                       Re: This might be a little redundant...poena.dare 3/5/12 5:31 p.m.
           Re: This might be a little redundant...Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:14 p.m.
                 Re: This might be a little redundant...Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:30 p.m.
                       Re: This might be a little redundant...RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:21 p.m.
                 Re: This might be a little redundant...RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:17 p.m.
                       Re: This might be a little redundant...Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 9:45 p.m.
                             Re: This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/6/12 5:04 a.m.
           Re: This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/6/12 5:17 a.m.

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