/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/


On Process
Posted By: Forrest of B.orgDate: 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Draft 1 Wireframe (RyokoTK)

: Far be it from me to criticize someone for being defensive of their own work,
: but if you work in a design-oriented field, you should know better than to
: take criticism this personally. Obviously at the end of the day it's your
: project, since you seem to be the only one immediately ready to put work
: into this, but you can't expect people to just go along with your ideas
: without any input or pushing back.

I wasn't taking any criticism personally until it became personal criticism. Apparently I misunderstood Joho's intentions, but Treellama seemed pretty clear with his "out of touch" comment and "people who are experienced and/or educated" implying that I'm not. I'm used to working in situations where everybody wants different things and I have to listen and weigh them all, and I'm used to having someone higher up the chain be able to say that it absolutely must or cannot be this or that way, and dealing with that. But nobody ever insinuates in that normal process that I'm not fit for the job or that I need tutelage from superiors just because I don't immediately comply with them.

I am not the greatest designer in the world. There is much that I can learn. But I do have both education and experience and am not simply defying the obvious wisdom of those who know better than me out of ignorance.

If I want to build "the nexus for all of the other Marathon sites and sub-communities" (well put), I do need to listen to feedback and input and adjust my design accordingly. But it is logically impossible to do everything which is being asked simultaneously, and even if it weren't, part of a designer's job is to be as critical as he is open-minded, neither shut out all outside opinions, not just do as he is told.

My job is to weigh all the different ideas thrown around and decide on which ones to go with. To make that decision, I need to know the reasons people are putting forth those ideas, and if they are good reasons; so if they do not strike me as obviously good (in which case they probably would have been in my initial draft), I need to say why not, and wait for arguments as to why, and evaluate the strengths of those argument, and reply again, etc. I need to listen to the reasons why people want what they want, not just the things that they want, in order to find a balance between all those reasons.

And my initial draft is made not just on a whim, but after consideration of possible critiques from different directions, so holding my ground isn't just me being stubborn, it's defending the opposite point of view, trying to strike a balance between different interests. And the fact that there are people arguing opposite points of view with me caught in the middle, some saying it should be more this and other saying it should be less this, vindicates that initial balance, I think. Not that that means there isn't room for improvement, possibly in both directions, as good arguments are made for seemingly opposite cases.

So yes, please, everyone, do keep giving your input; that's why I'm having this discussion in public and not just building this in private for Hamish. But do also expect me to counter-criticise your ideas; and please offer supporting arguments in response to that. And above all please do so without imply my incompetence, and understanding that just because I will not obey you doesn't mean I won't listen to you. Convince me of your point, and remember that other people are trying to convince me otherwise, and that even if they weren't I would be trying to think of why someone else might object anyway, and that I do that even to my own ideas, because that's my job, to balance all those kinds of concerns.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/18/12 3:29 a.m.
     Re: marathon.bungie.orgBob-B-Q 2/18/12 7:20 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgMrM12LRV 2/18/12 7:30 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/18/12 8:54 a.m.
     Re: marathon.bungie.orgTycho 2/18/12 10:12 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/18/12 10:17 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK*Tycho 2/18/12 10:32 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 2/20/12 12:00 a.m.
     Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 2/22/12 8:18 p.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgGodot 2/23/12 12:02 a.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 2/23/12 4:04 a.m.
                 Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:29 p.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 2/23/12 4:21 a.m.
                 Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdownForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:37 p.m.
                       Idea 1: OrganizationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:50 p.m.
                             Re: Idea 1: OrganizationJohannes Gunnar 2/23/12 11:00 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 1: OrganizationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:22 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 1: Organizationtreellama 2/24/12 3:53 a.m.
                             Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/25/12 10:52 p.m.
                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/26/12 5:46 a.m.
                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 11:58 a.m.
                                               Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:46 p.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeDiogenes 2/26/12 6:39 p.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 8:04 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/26/12 11:26 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:05 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/27/12 12:02 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/27/12 4:39 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/27/12 5:58 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK*W'rkncacnter 2/27/12 7:45 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:41 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 2:27 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/29/12 3:35 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/29/12 8:01 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:39 p.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/27/12 4:24 a.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:42 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:16 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 Wireframebrilliant 2/29/12 11:38 p.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/27/12 2:29 p.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:48 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/28/12 4:31 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 6:44 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:22 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/28/12 9:40 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 10:54 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeW'rkncacnter 2/28/12 11:20 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 WireframeDiogenes 2/28/12 12:06 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 12:19 p.m.
                                                                                               Balance of issuesForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/28/12 2:13 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 6:38 p.m.
                                                                                               On ProcessForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: On Processtreellama 2/29/12 4:22 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeRyokoTK 2/28/12 4:50 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK*Diogenes 2/28/12 5:31 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 6:57 a.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:40 p.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:41 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/28/12 1:25 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 2:33 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 7:03 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/28/12 9:03 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeTycho 2/28/12 3:53 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 10:44 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeGodot 2/28/12 11:28 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:57 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 1 WireframeJohannes Gunnar 2/28/12 1:27 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 WireframeW'rkncacnter 2/28/12 9:46 a.m.
                                                                 Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 2/29/12 12:40 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 2/29/12 4:41 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 2/29/12 7:28 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsW'rkncacnter 2/29/12 8:02 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 2/29/12 8:57 p.m.
                                                                                         check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.Johannes Gunnar 2/29/12 10:14 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:45 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:08 a.m.
                                                                                                           ...alsoJohannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:15 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: ...alsoForrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:25 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: ...alsopoena.dare 3/2/12 3:39 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 3/1/12 6:03 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns *NM* *LINK*Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 9:30 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 3/1/12 10:44 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:02 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsRyokoTK 3/2/12 5:27 a.m.
                                                                                                           Draft 5Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 11:53 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Draft 5ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:01 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsDiogenes 2/29/12 5:08 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsForrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:29 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Draft 4 - better variable columnsDiogenes 2/29/12 11:38 a.m.
                                                           Re: Draft 1 WireframeBob-B-Q 2/28/12 10:18 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Draft 1 Wireframepoena.dare 2/28/12 11:12 a.m.
                                                                       And they never paid me for it, either! *NM*Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 12:10 p.m.
                                   Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/26/12 4:04 p.m.
                                         Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:49 p.m.
                                               Re: Draft 1 Wireframetreellama 2/27/12 5:30 a.m.
                                                     Re: Draft 1 WireframeForrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:13 a.m.
                       Idea 2: IntegrationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:12 p.m.
                             Re: Idea 2: Integrationtreellama 2/24/12 4:03 a.m.
                             Re: Idea 2: IntegrationW'rkncacnter 3/31/12 4:15 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 2: IntegrationGodot 3/31/12 10:35 p.m.
                       Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:27 p.m.
                             Re: Idea 3: UnificationW'rkncacnter 2/23/12 8:37 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:37 p.m.
                                   Re: Idea 3: Unificationtreellama 2/24/12 4:13 a.m.
                                         Re: Idea 3: UnificationTycho 2/25/12 6:10 a.m.
                                               Re: Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/25/12 11:01 a.m.
                             Re: Idea 3: Unificationtreellama 2/24/12 4:07 a.m.
                                   Re: Idea 3: UnificationForrest of B.org 2/24/12 10:29 a.m.
                                         Re: Idea 3: Unificationtreellama 2/24/12 10:43 a.m.
           traxus overhaulChristTrekker 2/23/12 6:28 a.m.
                 Re: traxus overhaulForrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:31 p.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgBob-B-Q 2/23/12 6:37 a.m.
                 Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgmchief111 2/23/12 7:01 a.m.
                       Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 2/23/12 8:36 a.m.
                             Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgpoena.dare 2/23/12 8:57 a.m.
           Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgpoena.dare 2/23/12 6:41 a.m.
                 Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.orgChristTrekker 2/23/12 7:50 a.m.
     Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/3/12 6:56 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/3/12 7:23 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/3/12 8:47 p.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK*W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 9:44 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/4/12 3:05 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/3/12 11:19 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 3/3/12 11:47 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/3/12 11:18 p.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgW'rkncacnter 3/3/12 11:25 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/3/12 11:58 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 7:54 a.m.
                                   Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/4/12 8:25 a.m.
                                         Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 8:45 a.m.
                                         Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/4/12 8:46 a.m.
                                               Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/4/12 9:17 a.m.
                                                     Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 9:27 a.m.
                                                           Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/4/12 10:16 a.m.
                                                                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgW'rkncacnter 3/4/12 10:48 a.m.
                                                           Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 6:20 p.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 4:33 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/4/12 12:26 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/4/12 4:30 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgJohannes Gunnar 3/4/12 4:51 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/4/12 8:31 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgtreellama 3/5/12 5:47 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgW'rkncacnter 3/5/12 5:58 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:28 p.m.
                                   Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/5/12 10:20 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgGodot 3/5/12 11:20 p.m.
                             Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/6/12 12:55 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:57 p.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/5/12 2:12 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/5/12 6:09 p.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgukimalefu 3/4/12 2:56 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgBob-B-Q 3/4/12 6:38 a.m.
           Re: marathon.bungie.orgTycho 3/4/12 7:06 a.m.
                 Re: marathon.bungie.orgRyokoTK 3/4/12 7:35 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgHopper 3/4/12 10:09 a.m.
                       Re: marathon.bungie.orgForrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:34 a.m.
     This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/5/12 12:04 p.m.
           Re: This might be a little redundant...poena.dare 3/5/12 2:35 p.m.
                 Re: This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/5/12 2:40 p.m.
                       Re: This might be a little redundant...poena.dare 3/5/12 5:31 p.m.
           Re: This might be a little redundant...Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:14 p.m.
                 Re: This might be a little redundant...Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:30 p.m.
                       Re: This might be a little redundant...RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:21 p.m.
                 Re: This might be a little redundant...RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:17 p.m.
                       Re: This might be a little redundant...Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 9:45 p.m.
                             Re: This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/6/12 5:04 a.m.
           Re: This might be a little redundant...Diogenes 3/6/12 5:17 a.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

 

 

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:

If you'd like to include a link to another page with your message,
please provide both the URL address and the title of the page:

Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:

If necessary, enter your password below:

Password:

 

 

Problems? Suggestions? Comments? Email maintainer@bungie.org

Marathon's Story Forum is maintained with WebBBS 5.12.