Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns


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Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns

Posted By: Forrest of B.org Date: 2/29/12 8:57 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns (RyokoTK)

The subtle visual changes I could get behind; no chrome on the sidebar, deemphasized red (though I would darken rather than desaturate so there is still some color there), no white lines on the header. I'm not attached to those at all and would be happy to play with them more later.
But your solution to the scaling problem is precisely the problem I'm trying to avoid: fixed page widths.
The problem at hand is, "How should the page content scale with window size?"
One solution is "Don't". Fix the page content to a specific size, and let the window be full of nothing if it's bigger than you expected, or have to scroll if it's smaller. This is easy, but lazy, and dates a page; the current mbo looks old in part because it's fixed to a screen size way smaller than is common these days, and Joho's EVE Online example is fixed to a screen size larger than some monitor sizes still commonly used and so appears to some users to be "jumping the gun" ("hey, some people still have smaller monitors!"). The web is not a fixed medium, so we shouldn't force the page to be a fixed size; it should adapt, somehow, to the size of the window.
Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower". This is the lazy form of fluid (non-fixed) layout design and is not ideal, but is still better than fixing to a specific width for all the above reasons. At least in this case the user is in control; the content will fit in his window one way or another, and the size of that window is up to him, though the content might not look the most awesome at some sizes; but he can always resize his window if that's a real bother, unlike fixed-width pages which you cannot resize to fit your larger or smaller window.
Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower, to a degree." Used min-width and max-width to let the page scale up and down to a limited extent. This mixes the problems and benefits of both of the above: within a given range, you have the benefits of the squeeze-or-stretch approach, and then beyond that you have the problems of the fixed-width approach. Increasing that range trades occurrences of fixed-width problems for occurrences of squeeze-or-stretch problems, and so this doesn't really provide a general solution. And while most recent browsers support this, it's still relatively new in the big scheme, and those which don't support it default to the second behavior above, though those users are most likely to have smaller screens to begin with.
Another solution, the best I've seen so far, is "split or merge columns". This combined all the benefits of squeeze-or-stretch up to a specified range, and then beyond that range.... the layout rearranges itself, instead of continuing to stretch or just stopping entirely. This does unfortunately enforce an effective min-width as well, however. This is an even newer behavior that's supported in all the latest browsers, but the standard it's in isn't even finalized yet. On those machines where it's not supported, it falls back to the second (squeeze-or-stretch) behavior, but again, those users are likely to have smaller monitors anyway.
I don't pretend that this list of solutions is exhaustive. I would love to see alternatives. If anyone finds a fluid layout out there that does something differently, please let me know. But fixed-width layouts just ignore the problem, they don't solve it.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 3:29 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 2/18/12 7:20 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org MrM12LRV 2/18/12 7:30 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 8:54 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Tycho 2/18/12 10:12 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 10:17 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK* Tycho 2/18/12 10:32 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 2/20/12 12:00 a.m.

Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 2/22/12 8:18 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/23/12 12:02 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 2/23/12 4:04 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:29 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org treellama 2/23/12 4:21 a.m.

Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdown Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:37 p.m.

Idea 1: Organization Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:50 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization Johannes Gunnar 2/23/12 11:00 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:22 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization treellama 2/24/12 3:53 a.m.

Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/25/12 10:52 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/26/12 5:46 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 11:58 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:46 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Diogenes 2/26/12 6:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 8:04 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/26/12 11:26 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:05 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/27/12 12:02 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 4:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/27/12 5:58 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK* W'rkncacnter 2/27/12 7:45 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:41 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 2:27 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/29/12 3:35 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/29/12 8:01 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 4:24 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:42 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:16 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe brilliant 2/29/12 11:38 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/27/12 2:29 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:48 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/28/12 4:31 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 6:44 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:22 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/28/12 9:40 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 10:54 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe W'rkncacnter 2/28/12 11:20 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Diogenes 2/28/12 12:06 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 12:19 p.m.

Balance of issues Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/28/12 2:13 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 6:38 p.m.

On Process Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.

Re: On Process treellama 2/29/12 4:22 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/28/12 4:50 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK* Diogenes 2/28/12 5:31 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 6:57 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:40 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:41 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 1:25 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 2:33 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 7:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 9:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Tycho 2/28/12 3:53 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 10:44 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 11:28 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:57 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 1:27 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe W'rkncacnter 2/28/12 9:46 a.m.

Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 12:40 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 2/29/12 4:41 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 2/29/12 7:28 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns W'rkncacnter 2/29/12 8:02 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 8:57 p.m.

check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Johannes Gunnar 2/29/12 10:14 p.m.

Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:45 p.m.

Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:08 a.m.

...also Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:15 a.m.

Re: ...also Forrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:25 p.m.

Re: ...also poena.dare 3/2/12 3:39 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/1/12 6:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns *NM* *LINK* Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 9:30 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/1/12 10:44 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:02 p.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/2/12 5:27 a.m.

Draft 5 Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 11:53 p.m.

Re: Draft 5 ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:01 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Diogenes 2/29/12 5:08 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:29 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Diogenes 2/29/12 11:38 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 10:18 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 11:12 a.m.

And they never paid me for it, either! *NM* Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 12:10 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/26/12 4:04 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:49 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 5:30 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:13 a.m.

Idea 2: Integration Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:12 p.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration treellama 2/24/12 4:03 a.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration W'rkncacnter 3/31/12 4:15 p.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration Godot 3/31/12 10:35 p.m.

Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:27 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification W'rkncacnter 2/23/12 8:37 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:37 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 4:13 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Tycho 2/25/12 6:10 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/25/12 11:01 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 4:07 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/24/12 10:29 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 10:43 a.m.

traxus overhaul ChristTrekker 2/23/12 6:28 a.m.

Re: traxus overhaul Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:31 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 2/23/12 6:37 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org mchief111 2/23/12 7:01 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 2/23/12 8:36 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org poena.dare 2/23/12 8:57 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org poena.dare 2/23/12 6:41 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org ChristTrekker 2/23/12 7:50 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/3/12 6:56 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/3/12 7:23 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 8:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK* W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 9:44 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:05 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:19 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 3/3/12 11:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:18 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 11:25 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:58 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 7:54 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 8:25 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 8:45 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 8:46 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 9:17 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 9:27 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 10:16 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/4/12 10:48 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 6:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 4:33 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 12:26 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 4:30 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 3/4/12 4:51 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 8:31 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/5/12 5:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/5/12 5:58 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:28 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 10:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/5/12 11:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/6/12 12:55 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:57 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/5/12 2:12 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/5/12 6:09 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/4/12 2:56 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 3/4/12 6:38 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Tycho 3/4/12 7:06 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 7:35 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Hopper 3/4/12 10:09 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:34 a.m.

This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/5/12 12:04 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... poena.dare 3/5/12 2:35 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/5/12 2:40 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... poena.dare 3/5/12 5:31 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:14 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:30 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:21 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:17 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 9:45 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/6/12 5:04 a.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/6/12 5:17 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

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: The subtle visual changes I could get behind; no chrome on the sidebar, : deemphasized red (though I would darken rather than desaturate so there is : still some color there), no white lines on the header. I'm not attached to : those at all and would be happy to play with them more later. : But your solution to the scaling problem is precisely the problem I'm trying : to avoid: fixed page widths. : The problem at hand is, "How should the page content scale with window : size?" : One solution is "Don't". Fix the page content to a specific size, : and let the window be full of nothing if it's bigger than you expected, or : have to scroll if it's smaller. This is easy, but lazy, and dates a page; : the current mbo looks old in part because it's fixed to a screen size way : smaller than is common these days, and Joho's EVE Online example is fixed : to a screen size larger than some monitor sizes still commonly used and so : appears to some users to be "jumping the gun" ("hey, some : people still have smaller monitors!"). The web is not a fixed medium, : so we shouldn't force the page to be a fixed size; it should adapt, : somehow, to the size of the window. : Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower". This is : the lazy form of fluid (non-fixed) layout design and is not ideal, but is : still better than fixing to a specific width for all the above reasons. At : least in this case the user is in control; the content will fit in his : window one way or another, and the size of that window is up to him, : though the content might not look the most awesome at some sizes; but he : can always resize his window if that's a real bother, unlike fixed-width : pages which you cannot resize to fit your larger or smaller window. : Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower, to a : degree." Used min-width and max-width to let the page scale up and : down to a limited extent. This mixes the problems and benefits of both of : the above: within a given range, you have the benefits of the : squeeze-or-stretch approach, and then beyond that you have the problems of : the fixed-width approach. Increasing that range trades occurrences of : fixed-width problems for occurrences of squeeze-or-stretch problems, and : so this doesn't really provide a general solution. And while most recent : browsers support this, it's still relatively new in the big scheme, and : those which don't support it default to the second behavior above, though : those users are most likely to have smaller screens to begin with. : Another solution, the best I've seen so far, is "split or merge : columns". This combined all the benefits of squeeze-or-stretch up to : a specified range, and then beyond that range.... the layout rearranges : itself, instead of continuing to stretch or just stopping entirely. This : does unfortunately enforce an effective min-width as well, however. This : is an even newer behavior that's supported in all the latest browsers, but : the standard it's in isn't even finalized yet. On those machines where : it's not supported, it falls back to the second (squeeze-or-stretch) : behavior, but again, those users are likely to have smaller monitors : anyway. : I don't pretend that this list of solutions is exhaustive. I would love to : see alternatives. If anyone finds a fluid layout out there that does : something differently, please let me know. But fixed-width layouts just : ignore the problem, they don't solve it.

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marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 3:29 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/18/12 7:20 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	MrM12LRV	2/18/12 7:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 8:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	2/18/12 10:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 10:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	Tycho	2/18/12 10:32 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/20/12 12:00 a.m.
Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/22/12 8:18 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/23/12 12:02 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 4:04 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:29 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	treellama	2/23/12 4:21 a.m.
Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdown	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:37 p.m.
Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:50 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 11:00 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:22 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	treellama	2/24/12 3:53 a.m.
Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 10:52 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/26/12 5:46 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 11:58 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:46 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/26/12 6:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 8:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/26/12 11:26 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:05 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/27/12 12:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	W'rkncacnter	2/27/12 7:45 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:27 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 3:35 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 8:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:24 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:42 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:16 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	brilliant	2/29/12 11:38 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 2:29 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:48 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 4:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 6:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 9:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 10:54 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 11:20 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/28/12 12:06 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 12:19 p.m.
Balance of issues	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 2:13 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:38 p.m.
On Process	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: On Process	treellama	2/29/12 4:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 4:50 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	Diogenes	2/28/12 5:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:40 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 1:25 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:33 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 7:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 9:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Tycho	2/28/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 10:44 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 11:28 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 9:46 a.m.
Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 12:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 4:41 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	W'rkncacnter	2/29/12 8:02 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 8:57 p.m.
check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	2/29/12 10:14 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:45 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:08 a.m.
...also	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:15 a.m.
Re: ...also	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:25 p.m.
Re: ...also	poena.dare	3/2/12 3:39 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 6:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns NM LINK	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 10:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/2/12 5:27 a.m.
Draft 5	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 11:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 5	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 5:08 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:29 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 11:38 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 11:12 a.m.
And they never paid me for it, either! NM	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 12:10 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/26/12 4:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:49 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 5:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:13 a.m.
Idea 2: Integration	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	treellama	2/24/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	W'rkncacnter	3/31/12 4:15 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	Godot	3/31/12 10:35 p.m.
Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:27 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	W'rkncacnter	2/23/12 8:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:13 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Tycho	2/25/12 6:10 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 11:01 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:07 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/24/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 10:43 a.m.
traxus overhaul	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 6:28 a.m.
Re: traxus overhaul	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:31 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/23/12 6:37 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	mchief111	2/23/12 7:01 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	2/23/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 8:57 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 6:41 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 7:50 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/3/12 6:56 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/3/12 7:23 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 8:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 9:44 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:05 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:19 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/3/12 11:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:18 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 11:25 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 7:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:25 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:45 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 9:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 9:27 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/4/12 10:48 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 6:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 4:33 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 12:26 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 4:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/4/12 4:51 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:31 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/5/12 5:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/5/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:28 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 10:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/5/12 11:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/6/12 12:55 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:57 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/5/12 2:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/5/12 6:09 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 2:56 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	3/4/12 6:38 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	3/4/12 7:06 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 7:35 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Hopper	3/4/12 10:09 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:34 a.m.
This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 12:04 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 2:35 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 2:40 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 5:31 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:30 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:21 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:17 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 9:45 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:04 a.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:17 a.m.



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	Message: : The subtle visual changes I could get behind; no chrome on the sidebar, : deemphasized red (though I would darken rather than desaturate so there is : still some color there), no white lines on the header. I'm not attached to : those at all and would be happy to play with them more later. : But your solution to the scaling problem is precisely the problem I'm trying : to avoid: fixed page widths. : The problem at hand is, "How should the page content scale with window : size?" : One solution is "Don't". Fix the page content to a specific size, : and let the window be full of nothing if it's bigger than you expected, or : have to scroll if it's smaller. This is easy, but lazy, and dates a page; : the current mbo looks old in part because it's fixed to a screen size way : smaller than is common these days, and Joho's EVE Online example is fixed : to a screen size larger than some monitor sizes still commonly used and so : appears to some users to be "jumping the gun" ("hey, some : people still have smaller monitors!"). The web is not a fixed medium, : so we shouldn't force the page to be a fixed size; it should adapt, : somehow, to the size of the window. : Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower". This is : the lazy form of fluid (non-fixed) layout design and is not ideal, but is : still better than fixing to a specific width for all the above reasons. At : least in this case the user is in control; the content will fit in his : window one way or another, and the size of that window is up to him, : though the content might not look the most awesome at some sizes; but he : can always resize his window if that's a real bother, unlike fixed-width : pages which you cannot resize to fit your larger or smaller window. : Another solution is "let everything get wider or narrower, to a : degree." Used min-width and max-width to let the page scale up and : down to a limited extent. This mixes the problems and benefits of both of : the above: within a given range, you have the benefits of the : squeeze-or-stretch approach, and then beyond that you have the problems of : the fixed-width approach. Increasing that range trades occurrences of : fixed-width problems for occurrences of squeeze-or-stretch problems, and : so this doesn't really provide a general solution. And while most recent : browsers support this, it's still relatively new in the big scheme, and : those which don't support it default to the second behavior above, though : those users are most likely to have smaller screens to begin with. : Another solution, the best I've seen so far, is "split or merge : columns". This combined all the benefits of squeeze-or-stretch up to : a specified range, and then beyond that range.... the layout rearranges : itself, instead of continuing to stretch or just stopping entirely. This : does unfortunately enforce an effective min-width as well, however. This : is an even newer behavior that's supported in all the latest browsers, but : the standard it's in isn't even finalized yet. On those machines where : it's not supported, it falls back to the second (squeeze-or-stretch) : behavior, but again, those users are likely to have smaller monitors : anyway. : I don't pretend that this list of solutions is exhaustive. I would love to : see alternatives. If anyone finds a fluid layout out there that does : something differently, please let me know. But fixed-width layouts just : ignore the problem, they don't solve it.
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