On Process


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On Process

Posted By: Forrest of B.org Date: 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Draft 1 Wireframe (RyokoTK)

: Far be it from me to criticize someone for being defensive of their own work,
: but if you work in a design-oriented field, you should know better than to
: take criticism this personally. Obviously at the end of the day it's your
: project, since you seem to be the only one immediately ready to put work
: into this, but you can't expect people to just go along with your ideas
: without any input or pushing back.
I wasn't taking any criticism personally until it became personal criticism. Apparently I misunderstood Joho's intentions, but Treellama seemed pretty clear with his "out of touch" comment and "people who are experienced and/or educated" implying that I'm not. I'm used to working in situations where everybody wants different things and I have to listen and weigh them all, and I'm used to having someone higher up the chain be able to say that it absolutely must or cannot be this or that way, and dealing with that. But nobody ever insinuates in that normal process that I'm not fit for the job or that I need tutelage from superiors just because I don't immediately comply with them.
I am not the greatest designer in the world. There is much that I can learn. But I do have both education and experience and am not simply defying the obvious wisdom of those who know better than me out of ignorance.
If I want to build "the nexus for all of the other Marathon sites and sub-communities" (well put), I do need to listen to feedback and input and adjust my design accordingly. But it is logically impossible to do everything which is being asked simultaneously, and even if it weren't, part of a designer's job is to be as critical as he is open-minded, neither shut out all outside opinions, not just do as he is told.
My job is to weigh all the different ideas thrown around and decide on which ones to go with. To make that decision, I need to know the reasons people are putting forth those ideas, and if they are good reasons; so if they do not strike me as obviously good (in which case they probably would have been in my initial draft), I need to say why not, and wait for arguments as to why, and evaluate the strengths of those argument, and reply again, etc. I need to listen to the reasons why people want what they want, not just the things that they want, in order to find a balance between all those reasons.
And my initial draft is made not just on a whim, but after consideration of possible critiques from different directions, so holding my ground isn't just me being stubborn, it's defending the opposite point of view, trying to strike a balance between different interests. And the fact that there are people arguing opposite points of view with me caught in the middle, some saying it should be more this and other saying it should be less this, vindicates that initial balance, I think. Not that that means there isn't room for improvement, possibly in both directions, as good arguments are made for seemingly opposite cases.
So yes, please, everyone, do keep giving your input; that's why I'm having this discussion in public and not just building this in private for Hamish. But do also expect me to counter-criticise your ideas; and please offer supporting arguments in response to that. And above all please do so without imply my incompetence, and understanding that just because I will not obey you doesn't mean I won't listen to you. Convince me of your point, and remember that other people are trying to convince me otherwise, and that even if they weren't I would be trying to think of why someone else might object anyway, and that I do that even to my own ideas, because that's my job, to balance all those kinds of concerns.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 3:29 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 2/18/12 7:20 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org MrM12LRV 2/18/12 7:30 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 8:54 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Tycho 2/18/12 10:12 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/18/12 10:17 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK* Tycho 2/18/12 10:32 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 2/20/12 12:00 a.m.

Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 2/22/12 8:18 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Godot 2/23/12 12:02 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 2/23/12 4:04 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:29 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org treellama 2/23/12 4:21 a.m.

Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdown Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:37 p.m.

Idea 1: Organization Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:50 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization Johannes Gunnar 2/23/12 11:00 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:22 p.m.

Re: Idea 1: Organization treellama 2/24/12 3:53 a.m.

Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/25/12 10:52 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/26/12 5:46 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 11:58 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:46 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Diogenes 2/26/12 6:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 8:04 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/26/12 11:26 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:05 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/27/12 12:02 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 4:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/27/12 5:58 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK* W'rkncacnter 2/27/12 7:45 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:41 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 2:27 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/29/12 3:35 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/29/12 8:01 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:39 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 4:24 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:42 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/27/12 11:16 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe brilliant 2/29/12 11:38 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/27/12 2:29 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 8:48 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/28/12 4:31 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 6:44 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:22 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/28/12 9:40 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 10:54 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe W'rkncacnter 2/28/12 11:20 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Diogenes 2/28/12 12:06 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 12:19 p.m.

Balance of issues Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/28/12 2:13 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 6:38 p.m.

On Process Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:56 p.m.

Re: On Process treellama 2/29/12 4:22 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe RyokoTK 2/28/12 4:50 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe *LINK* Diogenes 2/28/12 5:31 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 6:57 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:40 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:41 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 1:25 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 2:33 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 7:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 9:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Tycho 2/28/12 3:53 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 10:44 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Godot 2/28/12 11:28 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 9:57 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Johannes Gunnar 2/28/12 1:27 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/28/12 11:55 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe W'rkncacnter 2/28/12 9:46 a.m.

Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 12:40 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 2/29/12 4:41 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 2/29/12 7:28 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns W'rkncacnter 2/29/12 8:02 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 8:57 p.m.

check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Johannes Gunnar 2/29/12 10:14 p.m.

Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:45 p.m.

Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet. Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:08 a.m.

...also Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 2:15 a.m.

Re: ...also Forrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:25 p.m.

Re: ...also poena.dare 3/2/12 3:39 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/1/12 6:03 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns *NM* *LINK* Johannes Gunnar 3/1/12 9:30 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/1/12 10:44 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 3/1/12 10:02 p.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns RyokoTK 3/2/12 5:27 a.m.

Draft 5 Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 11:53 p.m.

Re: Draft 5 ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:01 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Diogenes 2/29/12 5:08 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Forrest of B.org 2/29/12 11:29 a.m.

Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns Diogenes 2/29/12 11:38 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 10:18 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe poena.dare 2/28/12 11:12 a.m.

And they never paid me for it, either! *NM* Bob-B-Q 2/28/12 12:10 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/26/12 4:04 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/26/12 5:49 p.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe treellama 2/27/12 5:30 a.m.

Re: Draft 1 Wireframe Forrest of B.org 2/27/12 9:13 a.m.

Idea 2: Integration Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:12 p.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration treellama 2/24/12 4:03 a.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration W'rkncacnter 3/31/12 4:15 p.m.

Re: Idea 2: Integration Godot 3/31/12 10:35 p.m.

Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 7:27 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification W'rkncacnter 2/23/12 8:37 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 11:37 p.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 4:13 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Tycho 2/25/12 6:10 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/25/12 11:01 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 4:07 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification Forrest of B.org 2/24/12 10:29 a.m.

Re: Idea 3: Unification treellama 2/24/12 10:43 a.m.

traxus overhaul ChristTrekker 2/23/12 6:28 a.m.

Re: traxus overhaul Forrest of B.org 2/23/12 6:31 p.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 2/23/12 6:37 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org mchief111 2/23/12 7:01 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 2/23/12 8:36 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org poena.dare 2/23/12 8:57 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org poena.dare 2/23/12 6:41 a.m.

Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org ChristTrekker 2/23/12 7:50 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/3/12 6:56 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/3/12 7:23 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/3/12 8:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org *LINK* W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 9:44 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/4/12 3:05 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:19 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 3/3/12 11:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:18 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/3/12 11:25 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/3/12 11:58 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 7:54 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 8:25 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 8:45 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 8:46 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/4/12 9:17 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 9:27 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 10:16 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/4/12 10:48 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 6:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 4:33 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 12:26 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 4:30 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Johannes Gunnar 3/4/12 4:51 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/4/12 8:31 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org treellama 3/5/12 5:47 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org W'rkncacnter 3/5/12 5:58 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:28 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 10:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Godot 3/5/12 11:20 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/6/12 12:55 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:57 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/5/12 2:12 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/5/12 6:09 p.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org ukimalefu 3/4/12 2:56 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Bob-B-Q 3/4/12 6:38 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Tycho 3/4/12 7:06 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org RyokoTK 3/4/12 7:35 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Hopper 3/4/12 10:09 a.m.

Re: marathon.bungie.org Forrest of B.org 3/4/12 11:34 a.m.

This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/5/12 12:04 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... poena.dare 3/5/12 2:35 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/5/12 2:40 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... poena.dare 3/5/12 5:31 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:14 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 8:30 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:21 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... RyokoTK 3/5/12 9:17 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Forrest of B.org 3/5/12 9:45 p.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/6/12 5:04 a.m.

Re: This might be a little redundant... Diogenes 3/6/12 5:17 a.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

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: I wasn't taking any criticism personally until it became personal criticism. : Apparently I misunderstood Joho's intentions, but Treellama seemed pretty : clear with his "out of touch" comment and "people who are : experienced and/or educated" implying that I'm not. I'm used to : working in situations where everybody wants different things and I have to : listen and weigh them all, and I'm used to having someone higher up the : chain be able to say that it absolutely must or cannot be this or that : way, and dealing with that. But nobody ever insinuates in that normal : process that I'm not fit for the job or that I need tutelage from : superiors just because I don't immediately comply with them. : I am not the greatest designer in the world. There is much that I can learn. : But I do have both education and experience and am not simply defying the : obvious wisdom of those who know better than me out of ignorance. : If I want to build "the nexus for all of the other Marathon sites and : sub-communities" (well put), I do need to listen to feedback and : input and adjust my design accordingly. But it is logically impossible to : do everything which is being asked simultaneously, and even if it weren't, : part of a designer's job is to be as critical as he is open-minded, : neither shut out all outside opinions, not just do as he is told. : My job is to weigh all the different ideas thrown around and decide on which : ones to go with. To make that decision, I need to know the reasons people : are putting forth those ideas, and if they are good reasons; so if they do : not strike me as obviously good (in which case they probably would have : been in my initial draft), I need to say why not, and wait for arguments : as to why, and evaluate the strengths of those argument, and reply again, : etc. I need to listen to the reasons why people want what they want, not : just the things that they want, in order to find a balance between all : those reasons. : And my initial draft is made not just on a whim, but after consideration of : possible critiques from different directions, so holding my ground isn't : just me being stubborn, it's defending the opposite point of view, trying : to strike a balance between different interests. And the fact that there : are people arguing opposite points of view with me caught in the middle, : some saying it should be more this and other saying it should be less : this , vindicates that initial balance, I think. Not that that means there : isn't room for improvement, possibly in both directions, as good arguments : are made for seemingly opposite cases. : So yes, please, everyone, do keep giving your input; that's why I'm having : this discussion in public and not just building this in private for : Hamish. But do also expect me to counter-criticise your ideas; and please : offer supporting arguments in response to that. And above all please do so : without imply my incompetence, and understanding that just because I will : not obey you doesn't mean I won't listen to you. Convince me of your : point, and remember that other people are trying to convince me otherwise, : and that even if they weren't I would be trying to think of why someone : else might object anyway, and that I do that even to my own ideas, because : that's my job, to balance all those kinds of concerns.

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marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 3:29 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/18/12 7:20 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	MrM12LRV	2/18/12 7:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 8:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	2/18/12 10:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/18/12 10:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	Tycho	2/18/12 10:32 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/20/12 12:00 a.m.
Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/22/12 8:18 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Godot	2/23/12 12:02 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 4:04 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:29 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	treellama	2/23/12 4:21 a.m.
Big ideas for mar.b.org breakdown	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:37 p.m.
Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:50 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Johannes Gunnar	2/23/12 11:00 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:22 p.m.
Re: Idea 1: Organization	treellama	2/24/12 3:53 a.m.
Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 10:52 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/26/12 5:46 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 11:58 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:46 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/26/12 6:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 8:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/26/12 11:26 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:05 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/27/12 12:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	W'rkncacnter	2/27/12 7:45 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:27 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 3:35 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/29/12 8:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:39 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 4:24 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:42 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/27/12 11:16 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	brilliant	2/29/12 11:38 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/27/12 2:29 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 8:48 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 4:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 6:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/28/12 9:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 10:54 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 11:20 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Diogenes	2/28/12 12:06 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 12:19 p.m.
Balance of issues	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 2:13 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:38 p.m.
On Process	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:56 p.m.
Re: On Process	treellama	2/29/12 4:22 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	RyokoTK	2/28/12 4:50 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe LINK	Diogenes	2/28/12 5:31 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 6:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:40 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:41 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 1:25 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 2:33 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 7:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 9:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Tycho	2/28/12 3:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 10:44 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Godot	2/28/12 11:28 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 9:57 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Johannes Gunnar	2/28/12 1:27 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/28/12 11:55 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	W'rkncacnter	2/28/12 9:46 a.m.
Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 12:40 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 4:41 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	2/29/12 7:28 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	W'rkncacnter	2/29/12 8:02 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 8:57 p.m.
check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	2/29/12 10:14 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:45 p.m.
Re: check out mediaqueries if you haven't yet.	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:08 a.m.
...also	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 2:15 a.m.
Re: ...also	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:25 p.m.
Re: ...also	poena.dare	3/2/12 3:39 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 6:03 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns NM LINK	Johannes Gunnar	3/1/12 9:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/1/12 10:44 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	3/1/12 10:02 p.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	RyokoTK	3/2/12 5:27 a.m.
Draft 5	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 11:53 p.m.
Re: Draft 5	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:01 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 5:08 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Forrest of B.org	2/29/12 11:29 a.m.
Re: Draft 4 - better variable columns	Diogenes	2/29/12 11:38 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 10:18 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	poena.dare	2/28/12 11:12 a.m.
And they never paid me for it, either! NM	Bob-B-Q	2/28/12 12:10 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/26/12 4:04 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/26/12 5:49 p.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	treellama	2/27/12 5:30 a.m.
Re: Draft 1 Wireframe	Forrest of B.org	2/27/12 9:13 a.m.
Idea 2: Integration	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:12 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	treellama	2/24/12 4:03 a.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	W'rkncacnter	3/31/12 4:15 p.m.
Re: Idea 2: Integration	Godot	3/31/12 10:35 p.m.
Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 7:27 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	W'rkncacnter	2/23/12 8:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 11:37 p.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:13 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Tycho	2/25/12 6:10 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/25/12 11:01 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 4:07 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	Forrest of B.org	2/24/12 10:29 a.m.
Re: Idea 3: Unification	treellama	2/24/12 10:43 a.m.
traxus overhaul	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 6:28 a.m.
Re: traxus overhaul	Forrest of B.org	2/23/12 6:31 p.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	2/23/12 6:37 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	mchief111	2/23/12 7:01 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	2/23/12 8:36 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 8:57 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	poena.dare	2/23/12 6:41 a.m.
Re: Big ideas for marathon.bungie.org	ChristTrekker	2/23/12 7:50 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/3/12 6:56 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/3/12 7:23 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/3/12 8:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org LINK	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 9:44 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 3:05 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:19 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/3/12 11:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:18 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/3/12 11:25 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/3/12 11:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 7:54 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:25 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:45 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 8:46 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/4/12 9:17 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 9:27 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 10:16 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/4/12 10:48 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 6:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 4:33 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 12:26 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 4:30 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Johannes Gunnar	3/4/12 4:51 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/4/12 8:31 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	treellama	3/5/12 5:47 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	W'rkncacnter	3/5/12 5:58 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:28 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 10:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Godot	3/5/12 11:20 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/6/12 12:55 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:57 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/5/12 2:12 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/5/12 6:09 p.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	ukimalefu	3/4/12 2:56 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Bob-B-Q	3/4/12 6:38 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Tycho	3/4/12 7:06 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	RyokoTK	3/4/12 7:35 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Hopper	3/4/12 10:09 a.m.
Re: marathon.bungie.org	Forrest of B.org	3/4/12 11:34 a.m.
This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 12:04 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 2:35 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/5/12 2:40 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	poena.dare	3/5/12 5:31 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:14 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 8:30 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:21 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	RyokoTK	3/5/12 9:17 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Forrest of B.org	3/5/12 9:45 p.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:04 a.m.
Re: This might be a little redundant...	Diogenes	3/6/12 5:17 a.m.



	Your Name:
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	Message: : I wasn't taking any criticism personally until it became personal criticism. : Apparently I misunderstood Joho's intentions, but Treellama seemed pretty : clear with his "out of touch" comment and "people who are : experienced and/or educated" implying that I'm not. I'm used to : working in situations where everybody wants different things and I have to : listen and weigh them all, and I'm used to having someone higher up the : chain be able to say that it absolutely must or cannot be this or that : way, and dealing with that. But nobody ever insinuates in that normal : process that I'm not fit for the job or that I need tutelage from : superiors just because I don't immediately comply with them. : I am not the greatest designer in the world. There is much that I can learn. : But I do have both education and experience and am not simply defying the : obvious wisdom of those who know better than me out of ignorance. : If I want to build "the nexus for all of the other Marathon sites and : sub-communities" (well put), I do need to listen to feedback and : input and adjust my design accordingly. But it is logically impossible to : do everything which is being asked simultaneously, and even if it weren't, : part of a designer's job is to be as critical as he is open-minded, : neither shut out all outside opinions, not just do as he is told. : My job is to weigh all the different ideas thrown around and decide on which : ones to go with. To make that decision, I need to know the reasons people : are putting forth those ideas, and if they are good reasons; so if they do : not strike me as obviously good (in which case they probably would have : been in my initial draft), I need to say why not, and wait for arguments : as to why, and evaluate the strengths of those argument, and reply again, : etc. I need to listen to the reasons why people want what they want, not : just the things that they want, in order to find a balance between all : those reasons. : And my initial draft is made not just on a whim, but after consideration of : possible critiques from different directions, so holding my ground isn't : just me being stubborn, it's defending the opposite point of view, trying : to strike a balance between different interests. And the fact that there : are people arguing opposite points of view with me caught in the middle, : some saying it should be more this and other saying it should be less : this , vindicates that initial balance, I think. Not that that means there : isn't room for improvement, possibly in both directions, as good arguments : are made for seemingly opposite cases. : So yes, please, everyone, do keep giving your input; that's why I'm having : this discussion in public and not just building this in private for : Hamish. But do also expect me to counter-criticise your ideas; and please : offer supporting arguments in response to that. And above all please do so : without imply my incompetence, and understanding that just because I will : not obey you doesn't mean I won't listen to you. Convince me of your : point, and remember that other people are trying to convince me otherwise, : and that even if they weren't I would be trying to think of why someone : else might object anyway, and that I do that even to my own ideas, because : that's my job, to balance all those kinds of concerns.
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