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	AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"
	Posted By: ForceMorph	Date: 4/8/05 6:16 p.m.
	In Response To: They also have a forced locality (MrHen) *comes out of hiding for a moment* : Something I've noticed is that the AI in Marathon never exist in more than : one place. They often refer to themselves as a physical thing (such as : when Leela was being shipped to the Phor homeworld, or the way Durandal : keeps flying about the universe). : On the Durandal page there is a quote from Jason Jones: Immediately after : assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded : his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in : search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own : devices. : The AI in Marathon are basically disembodied personalities. It is strange : that if Durandal can download his personality he couldn't have copied it : and made two of him running around... *shudder* : For some reason, AI's can't be in two places at once. They cannot be simply : programs. There is something else going on as far as hardware, I agree. : But if Durandal can just shoomp from one network to the next, how can it : be tied to any specific hardware? I remember playing the Marathon Trilogy for the first time and forming my own theories on how Durandal, Leela, and Tycho are "ghosts in the machine" (The Police album, anyone?). But first, I understood simply that each AI had an actual physical core - Durandal had one because we busted it. I thought of AIs of... well, "intelligent" browsers. Think Google spiders indexing webpages. They're functioning from one core, but can see whenever is connected to it. That doesn't mean they're being copied, they're just viewing and/or manipulating something like a user would. I also thought that each AI had a unique digital signiture attached to it so no copies could be made - except maybe the Pfhor's cheap "pirated" copies of Tycho that failed to work correctly. That would mean each copy of an AI could exist in one place, the AI itself could determine where it stored its core - but it had to be big enough to hold the AI. : The global network part of rampancy is also interesting. : Theoretically, testing Rampancy should be easily accomplished : in the laboratory, but in fact it has never successfully been : attempted. The confinement of the laboratory makes it : impossible for the developing Rampant AI to survive. As the : growing recursive programs expand with exponential vivacity, : any limitation negatively hampers growth. Since Rampant AIs : need a planetary sized network of computers in order to grow, : it is not feasible to expect anyone to sacrifice a world-web : just to test a theory. : Why would it need a planet? If it needs an entire grid like that to grow, how : can Durandal keep limiting himself by transferring from ship to ship? The : Marathon is big, but not big enough. This is noted by Leela and that's way : she wants Durandal off. For this I usually compare it to the SETI system. Imagine if all the computers around the world people volunteer to use while they're idle as SETI helpers were changed so that while idle, they all tied together to simulate a human brain. Supercomputers wouldn't be able to handle all the data in one place, it'd need to be distributed into smaller processes across independent systems. Is it more efficient to have 1 huge program processing in one processor, or that one program distributed across 1000 processors? Thus the need for a planet-wide system to sustain a rampant AI. Just an idea. : How could Durandal have transferred himself somewhere larger than the : Marathon? : Even still, they said that rampancy began in the latter part of the : twenty first century . I doubt that all computers on Earth suddenly became : neural network nodes between now and then. Even if you want to say Traxus : IV just turned Earth into a huge parallel computer, it wouldn't explain : how the AI's (more specifically rampant ones) can move. Nearly every computer today is connected to the internet. Technically every computer can reach any other somehow. P2P downloads. A rampant AI could spread across the internet in half a second and use every computer as a part of it's brain, limited only by connection speed. : The only hint given about Traxus' hardware was this: He was finally dealt : with by a : complete shutdown of his host net. : Which is strange because that's the first I think of when I imagine an AI : taking over the world... shut it down. Is there something that governs : these AI so they can't be rebooted? Is taking out Traxus' host net akin to : shutting down the brain of a biological sentient? As I said, imagine it as the internet. How could someone shut down the internet? It's too big. : The way I look at it is rampancy is absolutely tied to each AI's personality. : But that wouldn't explain why it always goes in the same cycle. : Not unless they all came from the same source and used the same "AI : template". When I read this I immediately thought of my FireFox browser, which uses profiles for all its settings and extensions and so forth. The browser core itself may be the same - different versions are out, yes - but they all use profiles to make them unique. Perhaps AIs work the same way. : Rampancy is the AI losing control of itself and becoming like us: irrational : and emotional. Jason said he wanted another word for "insane". : Yet there is something to be desired of rampancy: In the two hundred and : fifty years since Rampancy first : appeared in the Earth-net, the stable Rampant AI, the 'Holy : Grail' of cybertonics, has never come close to fruition. : Why would cybertonics want a rampant AI? It can only happen with AI's, and it : is assumed with AI's modeled after humans. Why they would put these in : charge of the Marathon doesn't make sense to me... but they are there. : There is something that happens in rampancy that makes it more human, and : think this is what the nerds are looking for in a stable rampant AI. They : want a human created by code. "They want a human created by code" is an excellent statement. Scientifically speaking, wouldn't it be possible? Our brain funtions are somehow biologically connected to our physical self... molecules determine happy or sad, why can't that be recreated artificially? How would we even know?

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Replies:

	Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues *NM*	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:38 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Bob-B-Q	4/2/05 2:29 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/2/05 8:20 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/3/05 7:03 a.m.
	They also have a forced locality	MrHen	4/3/05 8:52 a.m.
	Does seem that way.	J-M	4/3/05 10:33 a.m.
	Continuity	howekern	4/3/05 4:22 p.m.
	Re: Continuity	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
	Re: Continuity	howekern	4/5/05 3:31 p.m.
	Copied identities	MrHen	4/5/05 6:44 p.m.
	Continuity again	Forrest of B.org	4/5/05 7:29 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	Chlazza	4/3/05 10:55 a.m.
	Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 1:01 p.m.
	Re: Interesting.	Chlazza	4/3/05 2:45 p.m.
	Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 3:19 p.m.
	Copied people	MrHen	4/3/05 5:37 p.m.
	Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/3/05 6:45 p.m.
	Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 8:49 p.m.
	At least twice	MrHen	4/4/05 5:34 a.m.
	Google just shows those two. *NM*	MrHen	4/4/05 5:57 a.m.
	Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/6/05 11:41 a.m.
	Re: Interesting.	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:17 p.m.
	modern AIs	Josh M.	4/13/05 7:53 p.m.
	daisy daisy.... *NM*	duality	4/13/05 9:04 p.m.
	Re: Interesting.	Document	10/24/06 7:53 a.m.
	copying neural networks?	MrHen	10/24/06 4:45 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	howekern	4/5/05 4:03 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	blake37	4/5/05 4:25 p.m.
	Yow... and I agree.	MrHen	4/5/05 7:12 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 1:56 a.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	Steve Levinson	4/6/05 7:44 a.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 5:50 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	MrHen	10/24/06 5:54 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	Forrest of B.org	10/24/06 6:29 p.m.
	Where is Leela's last message?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:01 a.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/25/06 9:50 a.m.
	they spelled it wrong... *NM*	MrHen	10/25/06 10:18 a.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/24/06 8:23 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	ukimalefu	10/24/06 8:53 p.m.
	Re: They also have a forced locality	thermoplyae	10/24/06 10:49 p.m.
	what?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:21 a.m.
	Re: what?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 7:29 a.m.
	misunderstandings... :P	MrHen	10/25/06 8:45 a.m.
	Re: misunderstandings... :P	Document	10/25/06 9:52 a.m.
	thanks! you rock...	MrHen	10/25/06 10:19 a.m.
	Re: misunderstandings... :P	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:57 a.m.
	oh, got it	MrHen	10/25/06 12:59 p.m.
	Re: oh, got it	thermoplyae	10/25/06 1:26 p.m.
	#alephone, eh?	MrHen	10/25/06 8:30 p.m.
	Re: #alephone, eh?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:17 p.m.
	Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	Forrest of B.org	10/25/06 4:15 p.m.
	Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:14 p.m.
	More numbers	MrHen	10/25/06 5:18 a.m.
	AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	ForceMorph	4/8/05 6:16 p.m.
	Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	Forrest of B.org	4/8/05 8:05 p.m.
	Shades of Mamoru Oshii... *NM*	Bob-B-Q	4/9/05 5:56 a.m.
	Re: "a planetary sized network"	Document	10/25/06 4:51 p.m.
	My likely-nonsense theory	howekern	4/3/05 4:10 p.m.
	Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:28 p.m.
	Re: My likely-nonsense theory	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
	Durandal has you! *NM*	ukimalefu	4/3/05 10:06 p.m.
	Re: Durandal has you!	J-M	4/3/05 10:18 p.m.
	Re: My likely-nonsense theory	MrHen	4/4/05 5:47 a.m.
	Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Steve Levinson	4/4/05 12:19 p.m.
	Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:20 p.m.
	Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:22 p.m.
	Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	MrHen	4/4/05 5:55 a.m.
	Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Document	11/1/06 9:31 a.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/6/05 5:55 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 8:34 a.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/7/05 4:37 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 5:10 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/8/05 1:41 a.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Steve Levinson	4/8/05 8:29 a.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/11/05 1:57 p.m.
	Doesn't account for the world reset.	MrHen	4/13/05 5:40 a.m.
	Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	Andrew Nagy (mb)	4/13/05 10:48 a.m.
	Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	howekern	4/13/05 4:39 p.m.
	Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	ukimalefu	4/14/05 12:52 p.m.
	Yeah, but that's boring	MrHen	4/15/05 8:03 a.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/11/05 3:11 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/11/05 3:42 p.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Document	10/24/06 8:49 a.m.
	Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AI	AlexZander	10/30/06 2:35 p.m.

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