oh, got it


	/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/

oh, got it

Posted By: MrHen Date: 10/25/06 12:59 p.m.
In Response To: Re: misunderstandings... :P (thermoplyae)

: I read ukimalefu's quote of the definition as a response to Document's post
: rather than a supplement. "Maybe you should read the definition of
: exponential growth, because it sounds like you don't understand." If
: someone doesn't understand expontential growth that isn't Document, they
: can use Google and Wikipedia themselves to figure it out. And, from the
: sounds of it, Document did know what he was talking about, and I wanted to
: stand up and defend his point that the phrase "exponential
: growth" being used in a terminal didn't mean much of anything.
Ah, my mistake. I apologize and step out of the way.
: But there /aren't/ ways to find rough estimates. If we knew exactly when
: Durandal had managed to consume all of the Marathon's resources /and/ we
: knew exactly what "resources" meant and how much of them were
: open for consumption, then there will still be an infinite number of
: solutions just for exponential growth, nevermind all the other
: possibilities. We have no concept of what is "probably correct".
: We have no concept of "probably". There is simply too little
: information.
Rough estimates are possible. Granted, a whole ton of assumptions need to be taken (and apparently labeled better than I had them). But again, I was certainly not trying to come up with a rough estimate. "Rough" is too focused for what I was trying to do, which was simply give a demonstration of exponential growth. Why? Because I was curious.
I did enough number crunching to make me happy and just put it in the post at the end with a disclaimer. Apparently I need to make disclaimers ridiculously huge instead of assuming people here know what exponential growth is and that, realistically, there is no way to find the actual numbers, but that has nothing to do with estimates.
So, realistic estimates are beyond our reach, but whatever. I really have no interest in debating the plausibility of estimates. You are probably more correct than I am anyway, so I just concede and declare that any "estimation" we attempt is nothing more than hollow entertainment.
: The fact that we have too little information does not invalidate your
: numbers; they're still correct. They just don't... mean anything. To
: demonstrate that a "hypothetical AI following a hypothetical growth
: pattern with no limitations imposed upon it just might grow quickly
: maybe" is not useful discussion, and it will confuse and mislead
: people and we will end up with more bad math posts.
I was honestly not trying to turn it into a discussion. I just threw them there as a final thought; a final "what if".
I certainly did not mean to start an argument or confuse and mislead people or encourage more bad math posts. I just assumed that people were smart enough to realize the numbers do not mean anything. I forget how volatile the internet is.
: This is an excellent point. Durandal's growth can't be exponential simply
: because resources are limited far beyond space and time -- he also has a
: limited amount of processing power to deal with (as funny as that sounds).
: There's a point where you simply can't grow any faster because you're
: already growing as fast as possible under the physical limitations of the
: system. This further suggests that shortly after exponential growth
: begins, it dips to a point much lower than exponential.
Well, obviously, it would have to. I am not arguing against you. In the process of Durandal running out of space to grow, the systems aboard the Marathon would start doing random things.
: Right, and I'm making the bold statement that exponential growth in space
: more than likely does not relate to rampancy. I understood your point,
: hence the topic of my previous post. I didn't miss any cues.
Okay, I do not understand that... are you saying that exponential growth does not relate to rampancy? Or maybe that it caps off?
The latter makes sense, due to the nature of growth within a confined system. The former... uh, well, I guess I do not think you mean the former.
In any case, growth and rampancy really do not have much to do with each other. The psychological effects are much more important than the "growth" into a network.
: And I think you should have flagged your post with "don't let this
: confuse you; the Marathon is probably not like this."
Well, I did, but apparently not well enough. Next time I will just have a "ignore beyond this point" bit. In any case, I certainly meant no harm.
On a completely unrelated note, I would like to have a chat with you about the wiki sometime. Be it email, AIM, or whatever, I would just like to talk about its future and if you had any specific plans for it. We could also discuss the whole level categories thing before I start changing everything again. :P
I would probably prefer something like AIM or IRC because it more conducive to a conversation. I think I still have Frogblast around here somewhere... :P

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Pre-2004 Posts

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Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:
: Ah, my mistake. I apologize and step out of the way. : Rough estimates are possible. Granted, a whole ton of assumptions need to be : taken (and apparently labeled better than I had them). But again, I was : certainly not trying to come up with a rough estimate. "Rough" : is too focused for what I was trying to do, which was simply give a : demonstration of exponential growth. Why? Because I was curious. : I did enough number crunching to make me happy and just put it in the post at : the end with a disclaimer. Apparently I need to make disclaimers : ridiculously huge instead of assuming people here know what exponential : growth is and that, realistically, there is no way to find the actual : numbers, but that has nothing to do with estimates. : So, realistic estimates are beyond our reach, but whatever. I really have no : interest in debating the plausibility of estimates. You are probably more : correct than I am anyway, so I just concede and declare that any : "estimation" we attempt is nothing more than hollow : entertainment. : I was honestly not trying to turn it into a discussion. I just threw them : there as a final thought; a final "what if". : I certainly did not mean to start an argument or confuse and mislead people : or encourage more bad math posts. I just assumed that people were smart : enough to realize the numbers do not mean anything. I forget how volatile : the internet is. : Well, obviously, it would have to. I am not arguing against you. In the : process of Durandal running out of space to grow, the systems aboard the : Marathon would start doing random things. : Okay, I do not understand that... are you saying that exponential growth does : not relate to rampancy? Or maybe that it caps off? : The latter makes sense, due to the nature of growth within a confined system. : The former... uh, well, I guess I do not think you mean the former. : In any case, growth and rampancy really do not have much to do with each : other. The psychological effects are much more important than the : "growth" into a network. : Well, I did, but apparently not well enough. Next time I will just have a : "ignore beyond this point" bit. In any case, I certainly meant : no harm. : On a completely unrelated note, I would like to have a chat with you about : the wiki sometime. Be it email, AIM, or whatever, I would just like to : talk about its future and if you had any specific plans for it. We could : also discuss the whole level categories thing before I start changing : everything again. :P : I would probably prefer something like AIM or IRC because it more conducive : to a conversation. I think I still have Frogblast around here somewhere... : :P

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Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues NM	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:38 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Bob-B-Q	4/2/05 2:29 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/2/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/3/05 7:03 a.m.
They also have a forced locality	MrHen	4/3/05 8:52 a.m.
Does seem that way.	J-M	4/3/05 10:33 a.m.
Continuity	howekern	4/3/05 4:22 p.m.
Re: Continuity	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
Re: Continuity	howekern	4/5/05 3:31 p.m.
Copied identities	MrHen	4/5/05 6:44 p.m.
Continuity again	Forrest of B.org	4/5/05 7:29 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Chlazza	4/3/05 10:55 a.m.
Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 1:01 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	Chlazza	4/3/05 2:45 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 3:19 p.m.
Copied people	MrHen	4/3/05 5:37 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/3/05 6:45 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 8:49 p.m.
At least twice	MrHen	4/4/05 5:34 a.m.
Google just shows those two. NM	MrHen	4/4/05 5:57 a.m.
Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/6/05 11:41 a.m.
Re: Interesting.	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:17 p.m.
modern AIs	Josh M.	4/13/05 7:53 p.m.
daisy daisy.... NM	duality	4/13/05 9:04 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	Document	10/24/06 7:53 a.m.
copying neural networks?	MrHen	10/24/06 4:45 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	howekern	4/5/05 4:03 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	blake37	4/5/05 4:25 p.m.
Yow... and I agree.	MrHen	4/5/05 7:12 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 1:56 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Steve Levinson	4/6/05 7:44 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 5:50 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	MrHen	10/24/06 5:54 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Forrest of B.org	10/24/06 6:29 p.m.
Where is Leela's last message?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:01 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/25/06 9:50 a.m.
they spelled it wrong... NM	MrHen	10/25/06 10:18 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/24/06 8:23 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	ukimalefu	10/24/06 8:53 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	thermoplyae	10/24/06 10:49 p.m.
what?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:21 a.m.
Re: what?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 7:29 a.m.
misunderstandings... :P	MrHen	10/25/06 8:45 a.m.
Re: misunderstandings... :P	Document	10/25/06 9:52 a.m.
thanks! you rock...	MrHen	10/25/06 10:19 a.m.
Re: misunderstandings... :P	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:57 a.m.
oh, got it	MrHen	10/25/06 12:59 p.m.
Re: oh, got it	thermoplyae	10/25/06 1:26 p.m.
#alephone, eh?	MrHen	10/25/06 8:30 p.m.
Re: #alephone, eh?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:17 p.m.
Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	Forrest of B.org	10/25/06 4:15 p.m.
Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:14 p.m.
More numbers	MrHen	10/25/06 5:18 a.m.
AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	ForceMorph	4/8/05 6:16 p.m.
Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	Forrest of B.org	4/8/05 8:05 p.m.
Shades of Mamoru Oshii... NM	Bob-B-Q	4/9/05 5:56 a.m.
Re: "a planetary sized network"	Document	10/25/06 4:51 p.m.
My likely-nonsense theory	howekern	4/3/05 4:10 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
Durandal has you! NM	ukimalefu	4/3/05 10:06 p.m.
Re: Durandal has you!	J-M	4/3/05 10:18 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	MrHen	4/4/05 5:47 a.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Steve Levinson	4/4/05 12:19 p.m.
Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:20 p.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	MrHen	4/4/05 5:55 a.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Document	11/1/06 9:31 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/6/05 5:55 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 8:34 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/7/05 4:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 5:10 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/8/05 1:41 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Steve Levinson	4/8/05 8:29 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/11/05 1:57 p.m.
Doesn't account for the world reset.	MrHen	4/13/05 5:40 a.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	Andrew Nagy (mb)	4/13/05 10:48 a.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	howekern	4/13/05 4:39 p.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	ukimalefu	4/14/05 12:52 p.m.
Yeah, but that's boring	MrHen	4/15/05 8:03 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/11/05 3:11 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/11/05 3:42 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Document	10/24/06 8:49 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AI	AlexZander	10/30/06 2:35 p.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : Ah, my mistake. I apologize and step out of the way. : Rough estimates are possible. Granted, a whole ton of assumptions need to be : taken (and apparently labeled better than I had them). But again, I was : certainly not trying to come up with a rough estimate. "Rough" : is too focused for what I was trying to do, which was simply give a : demonstration of exponential growth. Why? Because I was curious. : I did enough number crunching to make me happy and just put it in the post at : the end with a disclaimer. Apparently I need to make disclaimers : ridiculously huge instead of assuming people here know what exponential : growth is and that, realistically, there is no way to find the actual : numbers, but that has nothing to do with estimates. : So, realistic estimates are beyond our reach, but whatever. I really have no : interest in debating the plausibility of estimates. You are probably more : correct than I am anyway, so I just concede and declare that any : "estimation" we attempt is nothing more than hollow : entertainment. : I was honestly not trying to turn it into a discussion. I just threw them : there as a final thought; a final "what if". : I certainly did not mean to start an argument or confuse and mislead people : or encourage more bad math posts. I just assumed that people were smart : enough to realize the numbers do not mean anything. I forget how volatile : the internet is. : Well, obviously, it would have to. I am not arguing against you. In the : process of Durandal running out of space to grow, the systems aboard the : Marathon would start doing random things. : Okay, I do not understand that... are you saying that exponential growth does : not relate to rampancy? Or maybe that it caps off? : The latter makes sense, due to the nature of growth within a confined system. : The former... uh, well, I guess I do not think you mean the former. : In any case, growth and rampancy really do not have much to do with each : other. The psychological effects are much more important than the : "growth" into a network. : Well, I did, but apparently not well enough. Next time I will just have a : "ignore beyond this point" bit. In any case, I certainly meant : no harm. : On a completely unrelated note, I would like to have a chat with you about : the wiki sometime. Be it email, AIM, or whatever, I would just like to : talk about its future and if you had any specific plans for it. We could : also discuss the whole level categories thing before I start changing : everything again. :P : I would probably prefer something like AIM or IRC because it more conducive : to a conversation. I think I still have Frogblast around here somewhere... : :P
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