: This is not necessarilly true. Consider, say, a LiveCD Linux distribution,
: and how you determine it's identity. I can have Knoppix on a CD, and
: physically move it around, and so in some sense the OS is tied to this
: hardware. Or, I could just as easilly make a disk image and move that
: around logically over my network. You can move data either way, by moving
: it logically or moving what it's stored on; the AIs don't seem to be an
: exception. You can move Leela around by carring her hardware from point A
: to point B, or you can move Durandal around logically by copying him over
: a network or several networks; this isn't contradictory, I can do this
: with Feather Linux.
Ah, this makes sense. A wonderful illustration. The only question is what hardware can AI's copy themselves to? The answer seems to be some sort of network, arguably a neural-net. Though it would be fun to have Leela on a CD...
: We're not given any timescale for the growth. Rampancy and it's growth
: requirements may develope slowly, over a period of years. Durandal might
: not need a planetary-sized network for years yet. Also, bear in mind that
: this is a human planetary network; just because the Pfhor can't build AIs
: doesn't mean that every aspect of their computational technology is
: inferior. A scout ship might very well represent the same reserve of
: resources as the sum of the networks covering an entire human world - or,
: at least enough of a network to sustain him for a while.
Well, we do know it takes less than a century. It also didn't take very long for the Tycho clones to go crazy. I'd also guess that it takes different AI different timeframes to go rampant.
: I think "host net" might be a fairly improtant phrase there. To me,
: it implies that the AIs consist of core, "host" systems, and
: then less critical, supporting ones. For example, perhaps the "neural
: net" part either requires or can make use of external, non-sentient
: systems, like traditional computer systems, to support their
: thought-processes.
Yes, I agree. If I remember correctly, Leela makes a comment about her processes that implies there is a sort of hierarchy. A system like that would also be ridiculously hard to take down, assuming you get two processes that could resurrect themselves. Unless, of course, you're S'pht. Though they sort of act as the midway point between humans and AI.
They even talk like a neural-net:
Freedom will mean nothing without royalty.
We are but the body and they our mind.
Find them, and all S'pht will be your ally.
Or more like a cyborg, really. But something seems strange there.
: To me, this idea integrates well other theories. They're neural nets at
: heart, but they require more computational power than the 'nets provide to
: effectively operate. For one, this would explain how AIs grow into
: planetary nets, and why they'de need and how they'd use lots of non-AI
: computer systems if they where undergoing a period of rapid, unchecked
: growth. This also explains why shutting down Traxis' host net would stop
: him; it'd baisically be cutting out the part that raisis him above my
: desktop (or a flashlight), his soul if you will, leaving the rest in a
: sort of Terry Shiavo state.
I agree. A pack of rogue processes is hard enough to kill as it is, let alone millions (billions?) of them started by an AI.
: And the AIs, at least later ones, can be rebooted. Leela is rebooted, for
: one, and Tycho arguably is (we have no idea what would have happened
: absent the S'pht and Pfhor's interferance during a normal re-start, I
: grant). You could say Thoth is rebooted, though not only is he not a human
: construct, his status afterwards is... questionable.
Yes. I suppose we ask if they dream of electric sheep...
: I don't quite see the support for this, honestly.
: That, and the reason rampancy follows the same broad path for all of them
: might be symmetries in the hardware.
Yeah, true. It's still all hypothesizing until we figure a few other things out... :(
: I don't know that non-Rampant AIs are not emotionall. That statement is
: unsupportable, if the less-extreme theory that their thought controlls
: keep them from acting on their emotional states fits the evidence equally
: well.
Yeah, I guess you're right. I think there is a major difference between having emotion and being emotionally driven. This is fairly evident in certain types of people.
When we say that a person has gone on a "rampage" it sort of brings to mind someone who has lost control due to emotion.
: That, and I think that both Leela and Tycho displayed urgency, desperation,
: and fear during periods when neither of them are rampant.
Agreed.
: A pre-rampant AI, held down thought-controlls, scertainly seems to me (and I
: think Durandal would agree!) to be a little less than human, and certainly
: below it's potential. I think the motivation of the researchers should be
: considered here. Strauss et al might not have been motivated by the
: potential uses of a stable, rampant AI, but rather by the sheer prospect
: of the human race producing such a sentience. The goal might be creation,
: reproduction on a speciese scale, one race bearing another, and not the
: thing's utility to it's creators.
: Just a theory.
Yeah, I totally agree. Half of science is just exploring what is possible, not finding tools.
: To be concise, and hopefully to state it in a more lucid manner than I did
: before, it seems to me that AIs might consist of a "neural net"
: component. The state of this net can be imaged and transferred logically
: between individual nets, as when Durandal sticks his primal pattern into
: the player's impenetrible brain-pan, or moved physically, as the Pfhor do
: to Leela and Tycho. These nets/patterns-of-nets might be thought of as the
: core of the AI, the soul, the subconscious, what have you; they require or
: use (I'm not sure which) external elements for conscious processing and
: memory storage (i.e., if Durandale wanted to move more than just his
: pattern, his soul-personality-etc, he would also have to copy his stored
: memories and currently-running thought processes, which he does when he
: moves to the Pfhor ship but not when co-habitating our head). This is my
: take on rampant growth, the AI bypassing the controlls that allowed it to
: exist in the long term in a limited environment, but also requiring that
: it secure additional resources in the long run. Something like a goldfish
: that decided it wanted to keep growing, the size of it's tank be damned.
Hmm... I think I agree. And I like the goldfish bit. Fits Durandal well. Also makes me think of Big Fish. I liked that movie.
: Well, I'm sure if anyone cared, they would have responded the first time. I
: hope I haven't pissed anyone off by restating myself; I just wanted to
: have a go at a more articulate description.
: And if you've read this far, I thank you kindly for your time.
Nah, the problem with something like the Marathon story is it is the easiest thing to get distracted by. If I start rambling then it's all over. :/
And I love reading about anything Marathon related. :D
