/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/


Does seem that way.
Posted By: J-MDate: 4/3/05 10:33 a.m.

In Response To: They also have a forced locality (MrHen)

: Something I've noticed is that the AI in Marathon never exist in more than
: one place. They often refer to themselves as a physical thing (such as
: when Leela was being shipped to the Phor homeworld, or the way Durandal
: keeps flying about the universe).

: On the Durandal page there is a quote from Jason Jones: Immediately after
: assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded
: his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in
: search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own
: devices.

: The AI in Marathon are basically disembodied personalities. It is strange
: that if Durandal can download his personality he couldn't have copied it
: and made two of him running around... *shudder*

: For some reason, AI's can't be in two places at once. They cannot be simply
: programs. There is something else going on as far as hardware, I agree.
: But if Durandal can just shoomp from one network to the next, how can it
: be tied to any specific hardware?

It's a... model of a hardware. if that makes sense. clearly it's a continuity issue, just like attempting to copy a human brain. You can only transfer and maintain, because the only way to copy it would be to break the continuity, effectively killing the structure. So he moves.

: The global network part of rampancy is also interesting.
: Theoretically, testing Rampancy should be easily accomplished
: in the laboratory, but in fact it has never successfully been
: attempted.  The confinement of the laboratory makes it
: impossible for the developing Rampant AI to survive.  As the
: growing recursive programs expand with exponential vivacity,
: any limitation negatively hampers growth.  Since Rampant AIs
: need a planetary sized network of computers in order to grow,
: it is not feasible to expect anyone to sacrifice a world-web
: just to test a theory.

: Why would it need a planet? If it needs an entire grid like that to grow, how
: can Durandal keep limiting himself by transferring from ship to ship? The
: Marathon is big, but not big enough. This is noted by Leela and that's way
: she wants Durandal off.

: How could Durandal have transferred himself somewhere larger than the
: Marathon?

Jrro... Jrro is the key here. Your implants are something pecculiar.

: Even still, they said that rampancy began in the latter part of the
: twenty first century . I doubt that all computers on Earth suddenly became
: neural network nodes between now and then. Even if you want to say Traxus
: IV just turned Earth into a huge parallel computer, it wouldn't explain
: how the AI's (more specifically rampant ones) can move.

: The only hint given about Traxus' hardware was this: He was finally dealt
: with by a
: complete shutdown of his host net.

Which he survives by... infiltrating. Which implies there's a certain curiously genetic component to AI structure. We may be grasping at straws, but the consistency of the AI portrayal in Marathon makes me really wonder.

: Which is strange because that's the first I think of when I imagine an AI
: taking over the world... shut it down. Is there something that governs
: these AI so they can't be rebooted? Is taking out Traxus' host net akin to
: shutting down the brain of a biological sentient?

I think so.

: The way I look at it is rampancy is absolutely tied to each AI's personality.
: But that wouldn't explain why it always goes in the same cycle.

: Not unless they all came from the same source and used the same "AI
: template".

: Rampancy is the AI losing control of itself and becoming like us: irrational
: and emotional. Jason said he wanted another word for "insane".

Interesting. He didnt' want the connotation of insane. So it's clearly intended as a particular syndrome.

: Yet there is something to be desired of rampancy: In the two hundred and
: fifty years since Rampancy first
: appeared in the Earth-net, the stable Rampant AI, the 'Holy
: Grail' of cybertonics, has never come close to fruition.

: Why would cybertonics want a rampant AI? It can only happen with AI's, and it
: is assumed with AI's modeled after humans. Why they would put these in
: charge of the Marathon doesn't make sense to me... but they are there.
: There is something that happens in rampancy that makes it more human, and
: think this is what the nerds are looking for in a stable rampant AI. They
: want a human created by code.

Not just modeled after humans. Modeled after organic life. We're given a clue to some basic constancy among minds. To be honest, it's the S'pht who keep bothering me. Why cyborg into being a whole race when a simple AI would do... unless it's a very similar procedure in some way?

: How the hardware fits in with this is beyond me.

: Excellent questions, by the way.

I really think they're analog patterns of some sort. Sounds suspiciously like souls. What made me start wondering was Gherrit. What if they are indeed cybernetic organisms, and Gherrit is Durandal's seed? That would explain almost all of the discrepancies. You can use computers as neural nodes in a _pre-existing_ physical network. Imagine something along the lines of the SETI program but much more advanced. The clue is cybertonics, not cybertronics. Cybertonics is literally the science of network-strengthening, not network creation.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues *NM*J-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/2/05 1:38 p.m.
           Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesBob-B-Q 4/2/05 2:29 p.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesduality 4/2/05 8:20 p.m.
           Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/3/05 7:03 a.m.
     They also have a forced localityMrHen 4/3/05 8:52 a.m.
           Does seem that way.J-M 4/3/05 10:33 a.m.
                 Continuityhowekern 4/3/05 4:22 p.m.
                       Re: ContinuityJ-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
                             Re: Continuityhowekern 4/5/05 3:31 p.m.
                                   Copied identitiesMrHen 4/5/05 6:44 p.m.
                                         Continuity againForrest of B.org 4/5/05 7:29 p.m.
           Re: They also have a forced localityChlazza 4/3/05 10:55 a.m.
                 Interesting.J-M 4/3/05 1:01 p.m.
                       Re: Interesting.Chlazza 4/3/05 2:45 p.m.
                             Re: Interesting.J-M 4/3/05 3:19 p.m.
                                   Copied peopleMrHen 4/3/05 5:37 p.m.
                             Re: Interesting.thermoplyae 4/3/05 6:45 p.m.
                                   Re: Interesting.J-M 4/3/05 8:49 p.m.
                                         At least twiceMrHen 4/4/05 5:34 a.m.
                                               Google just shows those two. *NM*MrHen 4/4/05 5:57 a.m.
                                         Re: Interesting.thermoplyae 4/6/05 11:41 a.m.
                       Re: Interesting.Chaemera 4/3/05 8:17 p.m.
                       modern AIsJosh M. 4/13/05 7:53 p.m.
                             daisy daisy.... *NM*duality 4/13/05 9:04 p.m.
                       Re: Interesting.Document 10/24/06 7:53 a.m.
                             copying neural networks?MrHen 10/24/06 4:45 p.m.
           Re: They also have a forced localityhowekern 4/5/05 4:03 p.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localityblake37 4/5/05 4:25 p.m.
                 Yow... and I agree.MrHen 4/5/05 7:12 p.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localityJ-M 4/6/05 1:56 a.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localitySteve Levinson 4/6/05 7:44 a.m.
                       Re: They also have a forced localityJ-M 4/6/05 5:50 p.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localityMrHen 10/24/06 5:54 p.m.
                       Re: They also have a forced localityForrest of B.org 10/24/06 6:29 p.m.
                             Where is Leela's last message?MrHen 10/25/06 5:01 a.m.
                             Re: They also have a forced localityDocument 10/25/06 9:50 a.m.
                                   they spelled it wrong... *NM*MrHen 10/25/06 10:18 a.m.
                       Re: They also have a forced localityDocument 10/24/06 8:23 p.m.
                             Re: They also have a forced localityukimalefu 10/24/06 8:53 p.m.
                                   Re: They also have a forced localitythermoplyae 10/24/06 10:49 p.m.
                                         what?MrHen 10/25/06 5:21 a.m.
                                               Re: what?thermoplyae 10/25/06 7:29 a.m.
                                                     misunderstandings... :PMrHen 10/25/06 8:45 a.m.
                                                           Re: misunderstandings... :PDocument 10/25/06 9:52 a.m.
                                                                 thanks! you rock...MrHen 10/25/06 10:19 a.m.
                                                           Re: misunderstandings... :Pthermoplyae 10/25/06 11:57 a.m.
                                                                 oh, got itMrHen 10/25/06 12:59 p.m.
                                                                       Re: oh, got itthermoplyae 10/25/06 1:26 p.m.
                                                                             #alephone, eh?MrHen 10/25/06 8:30 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: #alephone, eh?thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:17 p.m.
                                                                 Rampancy and Exponentiatial GrowthForrest of B.org 10/25/06 4:15 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growththermoplyae 10/25/06 11:14 p.m.
                             More numbersMrHen 10/25/06 5:18 a.m.
           AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"ForceMorph 4/8/05 6:16 p.m.
                 Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"Forrest of B.org 4/8/05 8:05 p.m.
                       Shades of Mamoru Oshii... *NM*Bob-B-Q 4/9/05 5:56 a.m.
           Re: "a planetary sized network"Document 10/25/06 4:51 p.m.
     My likely-nonsense theoryhowekern 4/3/05 4:10 p.m.
           Re: My likely-nonsense theoryChaemera 4/3/05 8:28 p.m.
                 Re: My likely-nonsense theoryJ-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
                       Durandal has you! *NM*ukimalefu 4/3/05 10:06 p.m.
                             Re: Durandal has you!J-M 4/3/05 10:18 p.m.
                       Re: My likely-nonsense theoryMrHen 4/4/05 5:47 a.m.
                             Re: My likely-nonsense theorySteve Levinson 4/4/05 12:19 p.m.
     Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyForrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:20 p.m.
           Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyForrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:22 p.m.
                 Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyMrHen 4/4/05 5:55 a.m.
                 Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyDocument 11/1/06 9:31 a.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/6/05 5:55 p.m.
           Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesForrest of B.org 4/7/05 8:34 a.m.
                 Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/7/05 4:37 p.m.
                       Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesForrest of B.org 4/7/05 5:10 p.m.
                             Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/8/05 1:41 a.m.
                                   Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesSteve Levinson 4/8/05 8:29 a.m.
                                         Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesduality 4/11/05 1:57 p.m.
                                               Doesn't account for the world reset.MrHen 4/13/05 5:40 a.m.
                                                     Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.Andrew Nagy (mb) 4/13/05 10:48 a.m.
                                                           Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.howekern 4/13/05 4:39 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.ukimalefu 4/14/05 12:52 p.m.
                                                                 Yeah, but that's boringMrHen 4/15/05 8:03 a.m.
                                   Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesForrest of B.org 4/11/05 3:11 p.m.
                                         Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/11/05 3:42 p.m.
                                               Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesDocument 10/24/06 8:49 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AIAlexZander 10/30/06 2:35 p.m.

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