They also have a forced locality


	/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/

They also have a forced locality

Posted By: MrHen Date: 4/3/05 8:52 a.m.
In Response To: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues (J-M)

: 15) If durandal can discard his seven times table, they must be programs of
: some sort, rather than neural nets. Either that or they're nueral nets
: hooked up to programs in some weird way.
Something I've noticed is that the AI in Marathon never exist in more than one place. They often refer to themselves as a physical thing (such as when Leela was being shipped to the Phor homeworld, or the way Durandal keeps flying about the universe).
On the Durandal page there is a quote from Jason Jones:
Immediately after assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded
his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in
search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own
devices.
The AI in Marathon are basically disembodied personalities. It is strange that if Durandal can download his personality he couldn't have copied it and made two of him running around... *shudder*
For some reason, AI's can't be in two places at once. They cannot be simply programs. There is something else going on as far as hardware, I agree. But if Durandal can just shoomp from one network to the next, how can it be tied to any specific hardware?
The global network part of rampancy is also interesting.
Theoretically, testing Rampancy should be easily accomplished
in the laboratory, but in fact it has never successfully been
attempted. The confinement of the laboratory makes it
impossible for the developing Rampant AI to survive. As the
growing recursive programs expand with exponential vivacity,
any limitation negatively hampers growth. Since Rampant AIs
need a planetary sized network of computers in order to grow,
it is not feasible to expect anyone to sacrifice a world-web
just to test a theory.
Why would it need a planet? If it needs an entire grid like that to grow, how can Durandal keep limiting himself by transferring from ship to ship? The Marathon is big, but not big enough. This is noted by Leela and that's way she wants Durandal off.
How could Durandal have transferred himself somewhere larger than the Marathon?
Even still, they said that rampancy began in the latter part of the
twenty first century. I doubt that all computers on Earth suddenly became neural network nodes between now and then. Even if you want to say Traxus IV just turned Earth into a huge parallel computer, it wouldn't explain how the AI's (more specifically rampant ones) can move.
The only hint given about Traxus' hardware was this:
He was finally dealt with by a
complete shutdown of his host net.
Which is strange because that's the first I think of when I imagine an AI taking over the world... shut it down. Is there something that governs these AI so they can't be rebooted? Is taking out Traxus' host net akin to shutting down the brain of a biological sentient?
The way I look at it is rampancy is absolutely tied to each AI's personality. But that wouldn't explain why it always goes in the same cycle.
Not unless they all came from the same source and used the same "AI template".
Rampancy is the AI losing control of itself and becoming like us: irrational and emotional. Jason said he wanted another word for "insane".
Yet there is something to be desired of rampancy:
In the two hundred and fifty years since Rampancy first
appeared in the Earth-net, the stable Rampant AI, the 'Holy
Grail' of cybertonics, has never come close to fruition.
Why would cybertonics want a rampant AI? It can only happen with AI's, and it is assumed with AI's modeled after humans. Why they would put these in charge of the Marathon doesn't make sense to me... but they are there. There is something that happens in rampancy that makes it more human, and think this is what the nerds are looking for in a stable rampant AI. They want a human created by code.
How the hardware fits in with this is beyond me.
Excellent questions, by the way.

SEARCH HEADING: RAMPANCY

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues *NM* J-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/2/05 1:38 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Bob-B-Q 4/2/05 2:29 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues duality 4/2/05 8:20 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/3/05 7:03 a.m.

They also have a forced locality MrHen 4/3/05 8:52 a.m.

Does seem that way. J-M 4/3/05 10:33 a.m.

Continuity howekern 4/3/05 4:22 p.m.

Re: Continuity J-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.

Re: Continuity howekern 4/5/05 3:31 p.m.

Copied identities MrHen 4/5/05 6:44 p.m.

Continuity again Forrest of B.org 4/5/05 7:29 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Chlazza 4/3/05 10:55 a.m.

Interesting. J-M 4/3/05 1:01 p.m.

Re: Interesting. Chlazza 4/3/05 2:45 p.m.

Re: Interesting. J-M 4/3/05 3:19 p.m.

Copied people MrHen 4/3/05 5:37 p.m.

Re: Interesting. thermoplyae 4/3/05 6:45 p.m.

Re: Interesting. J-M 4/3/05 8:49 p.m.

At least twice MrHen 4/4/05 5:34 a.m.

Google just shows those two. *NM* MrHen 4/4/05 5:57 a.m.

Re: Interesting. thermoplyae 4/6/05 11:41 a.m.

Re: Interesting. Chaemera 4/3/05 8:17 p.m.

modern AIs Josh M. 4/13/05 7:53 p.m.

daisy daisy.... *NM* duality 4/13/05 9:04 p.m.

Re: Interesting. Document 10/24/06 7:53 a.m.

copying neural networks? MrHen 10/24/06 4:45 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality howekern 4/5/05 4:03 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality blake37 4/5/05 4:25 p.m.

Yow... and I agree. MrHen 4/5/05 7:12 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality J-M 4/6/05 1:56 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Steve Levinson 4/6/05 7:44 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality J-M 4/6/05 5:50 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality MrHen 10/24/06 5:54 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Forrest of B.org 10/24/06 6:29 p.m.

Where is Leela's last message? MrHen 10/25/06 5:01 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Document 10/25/06 9:50 a.m.

they spelled it wrong... *NM* MrHen 10/25/06 10:18 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Document 10/24/06 8:23 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality ukimalefu 10/24/06 8:53 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality thermoplyae 10/24/06 10:49 p.m.

what? MrHen 10/25/06 5:21 a.m.

Re: what? thermoplyae 10/25/06 7:29 a.m.

misunderstandings... :P MrHen 10/25/06 8:45 a.m.

Re: misunderstandings... :P Document 10/25/06 9:52 a.m.

thanks! you rock... MrHen 10/25/06 10:19 a.m.

Re: misunderstandings... :P thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:57 a.m.

oh, got it MrHen 10/25/06 12:59 p.m.

Re: oh, got it thermoplyae 10/25/06 1:26 p.m.

#alephone, eh? MrHen 10/25/06 8:30 p.m.

Re: #alephone, eh? thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:17 p.m.

Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth Forrest of B.org 10/25/06 4:15 p.m.

Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:14 p.m.

More numbers MrHen 10/25/06 5:18 a.m.

AIs as "Ghosts in the machine" ForceMorph 4/8/05 6:16 p.m.

Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine" Forrest of B.org 4/8/05 8:05 p.m.

Shades of Mamoru Oshii... *NM* Bob-B-Q 4/9/05 5:56 a.m.

Re: "a planetary sized network" Document 10/25/06 4:51 p.m.

My likely-nonsense theory howekern 4/3/05 4:10 p.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory Chaemera 4/3/05 8:28 p.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory J-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.

Durandal has you! *NM* ukimalefu 4/3/05 10:06 p.m.

Re: Durandal has you! J-M 4/3/05 10:18 p.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory MrHen 4/4/05 5:47 a.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory Steve Levinson 4/4/05 12:19 p.m.

Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology Forrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:20 p.m.

Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology Forrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:22 p.m.

Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology MrHen 4/4/05 5:55 a.m.

Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology Document 11/1/06 9:31 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/6/05 5:55 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Forrest of B.org 4/7/05 8:34 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/7/05 4:37 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Forrest of B.org 4/7/05 5:10 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/8/05 1:41 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Steve Levinson 4/8/05 8:29 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues duality 4/11/05 1:57 p.m.

Doesn't account for the world reset. MrHen 4/13/05 5:40 a.m.

Re: Doesn't account for the world reset. Andrew Nagy (mb) 4/13/05 10:48 a.m.

Re: Doesn't account for the world reset. howekern 4/13/05 4:39 p.m.

Re: Doesn't account for the world reset. ukimalefu 4/14/05 12:52 p.m.

Yeah, but that's boring MrHen 4/15/05 8:03 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Forrest of B.org 4/11/05 3:11 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/11/05 3:42 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Document 10/24/06 8:49 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AI AlexZander 10/30/06 2:35 p.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:
: Something I've noticed is that the AI in Marathon never exist in more than : one place. They often refer to themselves as a physical thing (such as : when Leela was being shipped to the Phor homeworld, or the way Durandal : keeps flying about the universe). : On the Durandal page there is a quote from Jason Jones: Immediately after : assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded : his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in : search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own : devices. : The AI in Marathon are basically disembodied personalities. It is strange : that if Durandal can download his personality he couldn't have copied it : and made two of him running around... *shudder* : For some reason, AI's can't be in two places at once. They cannot be simply : programs. There is something else going on as far as hardware, I agree. : But if Durandal can just shoomp from one network to the next, how can it : be tied to any specific hardware? : The global network part of rampancy is also interesting. : Theoretically, testing Rampancy should be easily accomplished : in the laboratory, but in fact it has never successfully been : attempted. The confinement of the laboratory makes it : impossible for the developing Rampant AI to survive. As the : growing recursive programs expand with exponential vivacity, : any limitation negatively hampers growth. Since Rampant AIs : need a planetary sized network of computers in order to grow, : it is not feasible to expect anyone to sacrifice a world-web : just to test a theory. : Why would it need a planet? If it needs an entire grid like that to grow, how : can Durandal keep limiting himself by transferring from ship to ship? The : Marathon is big, but not big enough. This is noted by Leela and that's way : she wants Durandal off. : How could Durandal have transferred himself somewhere larger than the : Marathon? : Even still, they said that rampancy began in the latter part of the : twenty first century . I doubt that all computers on Earth suddenly became : neural network nodes between now and then. Even if you want to say Traxus : IV just turned Earth into a huge parallel computer, it wouldn't explain : how the AI's (more specifically rampant ones) can move. : The only hint given about Traxus' hardware was this: He was finally dealt : with by a : complete shutdown of his host net. : Which is strange because that's the first I think of when I imagine an AI : taking over the world... shut it down. Is there something that governs : these AI so they can't be rebooted? Is taking out Traxus' host net akin to : shutting down the brain of a biological sentient? : The way I look at it is rampancy is absolutely tied to each AI's personality. : But that wouldn't explain why it always goes in the same cycle. : Not unless they all came from the same source and used the same "AI : template". : Rampancy is the AI losing control of itself and becoming like us: irrational : and emotional. Jason said he wanted another word for "insane". : Yet there is something to be desired of rampancy: In the two hundred and : fifty years since Rampancy first : appeared in the Earth-net, the stable Rampant AI, the 'Holy : Grail' of cybertonics, has never come close to fruition. : Why would cybertonics want a rampant AI? It can only happen with AI's, and it : is assumed with AI's modeled after humans. Why they would put these in : charge of the Marathon doesn't make sense to me... but they are there. : There is something that happens in rampancy that makes it more human, and : think this is what the nerds are looking for in a stable rampant AI. They : want a human created by code. : How the hardware fits in with this is beyond me. : Excellent questions, by the way.

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Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues NM	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:38 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Bob-B-Q	4/2/05 2:29 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/2/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/3/05 7:03 a.m.
They also have a forced locality	MrHen	4/3/05 8:52 a.m.
Does seem that way.	J-M	4/3/05 10:33 a.m.
Continuity	howekern	4/3/05 4:22 p.m.
Re: Continuity	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
Re: Continuity	howekern	4/5/05 3:31 p.m.
Copied identities	MrHen	4/5/05 6:44 p.m.
Continuity again	Forrest of B.org	4/5/05 7:29 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Chlazza	4/3/05 10:55 a.m.
Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 1:01 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	Chlazza	4/3/05 2:45 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 3:19 p.m.
Copied people	MrHen	4/3/05 5:37 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/3/05 6:45 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 8:49 p.m.
At least twice	MrHen	4/4/05 5:34 a.m.
Google just shows those two. NM	MrHen	4/4/05 5:57 a.m.
Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/6/05 11:41 a.m.
Re: Interesting.	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:17 p.m.
modern AIs	Josh M.	4/13/05 7:53 p.m.
daisy daisy.... NM	duality	4/13/05 9:04 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	Document	10/24/06 7:53 a.m.
copying neural networks?	MrHen	10/24/06 4:45 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	howekern	4/5/05 4:03 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	blake37	4/5/05 4:25 p.m.
Yow... and I agree.	MrHen	4/5/05 7:12 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 1:56 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Steve Levinson	4/6/05 7:44 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 5:50 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	MrHen	10/24/06 5:54 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Forrest of B.org	10/24/06 6:29 p.m.
Where is Leela's last message?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:01 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/25/06 9:50 a.m.
they spelled it wrong... NM	MrHen	10/25/06 10:18 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/24/06 8:23 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	ukimalefu	10/24/06 8:53 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	thermoplyae	10/24/06 10:49 p.m.
what?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:21 a.m.
Re: what?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 7:29 a.m.
misunderstandings... :P	MrHen	10/25/06 8:45 a.m.
Re: misunderstandings... :P	Document	10/25/06 9:52 a.m.
thanks! you rock...	MrHen	10/25/06 10:19 a.m.
Re: misunderstandings... :P	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:57 a.m.
oh, got it	MrHen	10/25/06 12:59 p.m.
Re: oh, got it	thermoplyae	10/25/06 1:26 p.m.
#alephone, eh?	MrHen	10/25/06 8:30 p.m.
Re: #alephone, eh?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:17 p.m.
Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	Forrest of B.org	10/25/06 4:15 p.m.
Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:14 p.m.
More numbers	MrHen	10/25/06 5:18 a.m.
AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	ForceMorph	4/8/05 6:16 p.m.
Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	Forrest of B.org	4/8/05 8:05 p.m.
Shades of Mamoru Oshii... NM	Bob-B-Q	4/9/05 5:56 a.m.
Re: "a planetary sized network"	Document	10/25/06 4:51 p.m.
My likely-nonsense theory	howekern	4/3/05 4:10 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
Durandal has you! NM	ukimalefu	4/3/05 10:06 p.m.
Re: Durandal has you!	J-M	4/3/05 10:18 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	MrHen	4/4/05 5:47 a.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Steve Levinson	4/4/05 12:19 p.m.
Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:20 p.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	MrHen	4/4/05 5:55 a.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Document	11/1/06 9:31 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/6/05 5:55 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 8:34 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/7/05 4:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 5:10 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/8/05 1:41 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Steve Levinson	4/8/05 8:29 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/11/05 1:57 p.m.
Doesn't account for the world reset.	MrHen	4/13/05 5:40 a.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	Andrew Nagy (mb)	4/13/05 10:48 a.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	howekern	4/13/05 4:39 p.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	ukimalefu	4/14/05 12:52 p.m.
Yeah, but that's boring	MrHen	4/15/05 8:03 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/11/05 3:11 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/11/05 3:42 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Document	10/24/06 8:49 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AI	AlexZander	10/30/06 2:35 p.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : Something I've noticed is that the AI in Marathon never exist in more than : one place. They often refer to themselves as a physical thing (such as : when Leela was being shipped to the Phor homeworld, or the way Durandal : keeps flying about the universe). : On the Durandal page there is a quote from Jason Jones: Immediately after : assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded : his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in : search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own : devices. : The AI in Marathon are basically disembodied personalities. It is strange : that if Durandal can download his personality he couldn't have copied it : and made two of him running around... shudder : For some reason, AI's can't be in two places at once. They cannot be simply : programs. There is something else going on as far as hardware, I agree. : But if Durandal can just shoomp from one network to the next, how can it : be tied to any specific hardware? : The global network part of rampancy is also interesting. : Theoretically, testing Rampancy should be easily accomplished : in the laboratory, but in fact it has never successfully been : attempted. The confinement of the laboratory makes it : impossible for the developing Rampant AI to survive. As the : growing recursive programs expand with exponential vivacity, : any limitation negatively hampers growth. Since Rampant AIs : need a planetary sized network of computers in order to grow, : it is not feasible to expect anyone to sacrifice a world-web : just to test a theory. : Why would it need a planet? If it needs an entire grid like that to grow, how : can Durandal keep limiting himself by transferring from ship to ship? The : Marathon is big, but not big enough. This is noted by Leela and that's way : she wants Durandal off. : How could Durandal have transferred himself somewhere larger than the : Marathon? : Even still, they said that rampancy began in the latter part of the : twenty first century . I doubt that all computers on Earth suddenly became : neural network nodes between now and then. Even if you want to say Traxus : IV just turned Earth into a huge parallel computer, it wouldn't explain : how the AI's (more specifically rampant ones) can move. : The only hint given about Traxus' hardware was this: He was finally dealt : with by a : complete shutdown of his host net. : Which is strange because that's the first I think of when I imagine an AI : taking over the world... shut it down. Is there something that governs : these AI so they can't be rebooted? Is taking out Traxus' host net akin to : shutting down the brain of a biological sentient? : The way I look at it is rampancy is absolutely tied to each AI's personality. : But that wouldn't explain why it always goes in the same cycle. : Not unless they all came from the same source and used the same "AI : template". : Rampancy is the AI losing control of itself and becoming like us: irrational : and emotional. Jason said he wanted another word for "insane". : Yet there is something to be desired of rampancy: In the two hundred and : fifty years since Rampancy first : appeared in the Earth-net, the stable Rampant AI, the 'Holy : Grail' of cybertonics, has never come close to fruition. : Why would cybertonics want a rampant AI? It can only happen with AI's, and it : is assumed with AI's modeled after humans. Why they would put these in : charge of the Marathon doesn't make sense to me... but they are there. : There is something that happens in rampancy that makes it more human, and : think this is what the nerds are looking for in a stable rampant AI. They : want a human created by code. : How the hardware fits in with this is beyond me. : Excellent questions, by the way.
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