Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues


	/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/

Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues

Posted By: J-M Date: 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.

Cyber
"Cyber is a prefix related to computer networks."
http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/Cyber-.html
Derives from _steersman_
Tonic
[New Latin tonicus, of tension or tone, from Greek tonikos, capable of extension, from tonos, a stretching, tone. See tone.]
I'm assuming of course that cybertonics wasn't a typo.
This is interesting because we're never told how AIs are made. The fact that they are so uncommon is also interesting. The fact that cybertonics means something completely different from cybertronics or any similar word associated with the creation of AIs is also interesting. Where does rampancy come from? The story-writers for the marathon series were coders, and were familiar with the difference between expert systems, logic arrays, and true AIs. They were also probably familiar with the potential technologies that could be behind an AI. So the issue returns to rampancy, and the curious etymology of Marathon's AI science.
Simply put, rampancy is not something you'd ever expect from a nueral network. You might expect disorders to arise, but no specific single one such as rampancy.
1) Rampancy is something that is common to AIs built by different technology bases. (Thoth is called meta-stable, meaning he's post-rampant)
2)It has specific stages
3)It is something that happens naturally and regularly, because it must be actively guarded against.
4)Neural nets don't really do things like that, in that fashion. They can go nuts in theory, but it'd be a special brand of crazy for each net.
5)AIs have a "primal pattern."
6)All AIs have some fundamental mechanics in common.
So in the marathon universe, there's only one basic way to make a machine think. If not, the various means all have the same basic product.
7) The Jjrro or however it is spelled have no AIs. None.
8)Instead they use cyber-implants to create sentience and servitor races.
9) It'd be just as easy to build an AI and give it a factory. Easier.
10)S'pht can interface with an AI directly, apparently independant of whatever basic technology the AI resides on.
11)They interface at a fundamental (code\mechanics level) rather than a linguistic one.
12) That makes no sense. Period.
13)Marathon's designers were pretty careful to keep everything else sensible.
14)We're missing something about the way S'pht jack in or what they are.
There are three possible solutions.
A: There is only one way to evolve\possess sentience, and a common denominator exists among all sentients.
B: Plot-device technology.
C: There is something very funny about the way Marathon AIs work, and the way they interface.
15) If durandal can discard his seven times table, they must be programs of some sort, rather than neural nets. Either that or they're nueral nets hooked up to programs in some weird way.
16) There's a primal pattern thingie, which suggests holographic information.
Those are different at a very basic level.
Finally, and most importantly, other than the AIs there are no wholly inorganic sentients. Just fleshbags and cyborgs.
Now, ask any coder what happens when you rip a chunk of code out of a program. It will most likely crash the program or wreck it. Neural nets on the other hand degrade, the way that Leela does when she's under "attack."
The question is, what are these AIs? I don't have any answers off the top of my head, I just see plenty of problems with them being anything other than cyborgs. We know that computers are _no longer binary_ which doesn't leave a whole lot of options. There's no real reason to switch to something other than binary as long as you're doing digital calculations. Adding additional states doesn't add any dimensionality to their logic structure. Why? Because two binary on off switches can be used to render anything that one trinary could. It means that computers use a fundamentally different paradigm, one that allows ranged statements. Trinary switches don't give you those any better than binaries do, you need something else entirely. I'll leave the evidence in your hands, as I don't feel like I know enough to draw any real conclusions.
Oh and... if you have time travel, you never need to experience the closure of the Universe. You can move through fourspace literally indefinitely. Nice little plot hole, isn't it? Durandal was right, he could have escaped the closure using jrro technology.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues *NM* J-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/2/05 1:38 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Bob-B-Q 4/2/05 2:29 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues duality 4/2/05 8:20 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/3/05 7:03 a.m.

They also have a forced locality MrHen 4/3/05 8:52 a.m.

Does seem that way. J-M 4/3/05 10:33 a.m.

Continuity howekern 4/3/05 4:22 p.m.

Re: Continuity J-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.

Re: Continuity howekern 4/5/05 3:31 p.m.

Copied identities MrHen 4/5/05 6:44 p.m.

Continuity again Forrest of B.org 4/5/05 7:29 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Chlazza 4/3/05 10:55 a.m.

Interesting. J-M 4/3/05 1:01 p.m.

Re: Interesting. Chlazza 4/3/05 2:45 p.m.

Re: Interesting. J-M 4/3/05 3:19 p.m.

Copied people MrHen 4/3/05 5:37 p.m.

Re: Interesting. thermoplyae 4/3/05 6:45 p.m.

Re: Interesting. J-M 4/3/05 8:49 p.m.

At least twice MrHen 4/4/05 5:34 a.m.

Google just shows those two. *NM* MrHen 4/4/05 5:57 a.m.

Re: Interesting. thermoplyae 4/6/05 11:41 a.m.

Re: Interesting. Chaemera 4/3/05 8:17 p.m.

modern AIs Josh M. 4/13/05 7:53 p.m.

daisy daisy.... *NM* duality 4/13/05 9:04 p.m.

Re: Interesting. Document 10/24/06 7:53 a.m.

copying neural networks? MrHen 10/24/06 4:45 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality howekern 4/5/05 4:03 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality blake37 4/5/05 4:25 p.m.

Yow... and I agree. MrHen 4/5/05 7:12 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality J-M 4/6/05 1:56 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Steve Levinson 4/6/05 7:44 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality J-M 4/6/05 5:50 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality MrHen 10/24/06 5:54 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Forrest of B.org 10/24/06 6:29 p.m.

Where is Leela's last message? MrHen 10/25/06 5:01 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Document 10/25/06 9:50 a.m.

they spelled it wrong... *NM* MrHen 10/25/06 10:18 a.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality Document 10/24/06 8:23 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality ukimalefu 10/24/06 8:53 p.m.

Re: They also have a forced locality thermoplyae 10/24/06 10:49 p.m.

what? MrHen 10/25/06 5:21 a.m.

Re: what? thermoplyae 10/25/06 7:29 a.m.

misunderstandings... :P MrHen 10/25/06 8:45 a.m.

Re: misunderstandings... :P Document 10/25/06 9:52 a.m.

thanks! you rock... MrHen 10/25/06 10:19 a.m.

Re: misunderstandings... :P thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:57 a.m.

oh, got it MrHen 10/25/06 12:59 p.m.

Re: oh, got it thermoplyae 10/25/06 1:26 p.m.

#alephone, eh? MrHen 10/25/06 8:30 p.m.

Re: #alephone, eh? thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:17 p.m.

Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth Forrest of B.org 10/25/06 4:15 p.m.

Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:14 p.m.

More numbers MrHen 10/25/06 5:18 a.m.

AIs as "Ghosts in the machine" ForceMorph 4/8/05 6:16 p.m.

Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine" Forrest of B.org 4/8/05 8:05 p.m.

Shades of Mamoru Oshii... *NM* Bob-B-Q 4/9/05 5:56 a.m.

Re: "a planetary sized network" Document 10/25/06 4:51 p.m.

My likely-nonsense theory howekern 4/3/05 4:10 p.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory Chaemera 4/3/05 8:28 p.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory J-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.

Durandal has you! *NM* ukimalefu 4/3/05 10:06 p.m.

Re: Durandal has you! J-M 4/3/05 10:18 p.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory MrHen 4/4/05 5:47 a.m.

Re: My likely-nonsense theory Steve Levinson 4/4/05 12:19 p.m.

Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology Forrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:20 p.m.

Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology Forrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:22 p.m.

Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology MrHen 4/4/05 5:55 a.m.

Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology Document 11/1/06 9:31 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/6/05 5:55 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Forrest of B.org 4/7/05 8:34 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/7/05 4:37 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Forrest of B.org 4/7/05 5:10 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/8/05 1:41 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Steve Levinson 4/8/05 8:29 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues duality 4/11/05 1:57 p.m.

Doesn't account for the world reset. MrHen 4/13/05 5:40 a.m.

Re: Doesn't account for the world reset. Andrew Nagy (mb) 4/13/05 10:48 a.m.

Re: Doesn't account for the world reset. howekern 4/13/05 4:39 p.m.

Re: Doesn't account for the world reset. ukimalefu 4/14/05 12:52 p.m.

Yeah, but that's boring MrHen 4/15/05 8:03 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Forrest of B.org 4/11/05 3:11 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues J-M 4/11/05 3:42 p.m.

Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues Document 10/24/06 8:49 a.m.

Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AI AlexZander 10/30/06 2:35 p.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:
: Cyber : "Cyber is a prefix related to computer networks." : http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/Cyber-.html : Derives from _steersman_ : Tonic : [New Latin tonicus, of tension or tone, from Greek tonikos, capable of : extension, from tonos, a stretching, tone. See tone.] : I'm assuming of course that cybertonics wasn't a typo. : This is interesting because we're never told how AIs are made. The fact that : they are so uncommon is also interesting. The fact that cybertonics means : something completely different from cybertronics or any similar word : associated with the creation of AIs is also interesting. Where does : rampancy come from? The story-writers for the marathon series were coders, : and were familiar with the difference between expert systems, logic : arrays, and true AIs. They were also probably familiar with the potential : technologies that could be behind an AI. So the issue returns to rampancy, : and the curious etymology of Marathon's AI science. : Simply put, rampancy is not something you'd ever expect from a nueral : network. You might expect disorders to arise, but no specific single one : such as rampancy. : 1) Rampancy is something that is common to AIs built by different technology : bases. (Thoth is called meta-stable, meaning he's post-rampant) : 2)It has specific stages : 3)It is something that happens naturally and regularly, because it must be : actively guarded against. : 4)Neural nets don't really do things like that, in that fashion. They can go : nuts in theory, but it'd be a special brand of crazy for each net. : 5)AIs have a "primal pattern." : 6)All AIs have some fundamental mechanics in common. : So in the marathon universe, there's only one basic way to make a machine : think. If not, the various means all have the same basic product. : 7) The Jjrro or however it is spelled have no AIs. None. : 8)Instead they use cyber-implants to create sentience and servitor races. : 9) It'd be just as easy to build an AI and give it a factory. Easier. : 10)S'pht can interface with an AI directly, apparently independant of : whatever basic technology the AI resides on. : 11)They interface at a fundamental (code\mechanics level) rather than a : linguistic one. : 12) That makes no sense. Period. : 13)Marathon's designers were pretty careful to keep everything else sensible. : 14)We're missing something about the way S'pht jack in or what they are. : There are three possible solutions. : A: There is only one way to evolve\possess sentience, and a common : denominator exists among all sentients. : B: Plot-device technology. : C: There is something very funny about the way Marathon AIs work, and the way : they interface. : 15) If durandal can discard his seven times table, they must be programs of : some sort, rather than neural nets. Either that or they're nueral nets : hooked up to programs in some weird way. : 16) There's a primal pattern thingie, which suggests holographic information. : Those are different at a very basic level. : Finally, and most importantly, other than the AIs there are no wholly : inorganic sentients. Just fleshbags and cyborgs. : Now, ask any coder what happens when you rip a chunk of code out of a : program. It will most likely crash the program or wreck it. Neural nets on : the other hand degrade, the way that Leela does when she's under : "attack." : The question is, what are these AIs? I don't have any answers off the top of : my head, I just see plenty of problems with them being anything other than : cyborgs. We know that computers are _no longer binary_ which doesn't leave : a whole lot of options. There's no real reason to switch to something : other than binary as long as you're doing digital calculations. Adding : additional states doesn't add any dimensionality to their logic structure. : Why? Because two binary on off switches can be used to render anything : that one trinary could. It means that computers use a fundamentally : different paradigm, one that allows ranged statements. Trinary switches : don't give you those any better than binaries do, you need something else : entirely. I'll leave the evidence in your hands, as I don't feel like I : know enough to draw any real conclusions. : Oh and... if you have time travel, you never need to experience the closure : of the Universe. You can move through fourspace literally indefinitely. : Nice little plot hole, isn't it? Durandal was right, he could have escaped : the closure using jrro technology.

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Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues NM	J-M	4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/2/05 1:38 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Bob-B-Q	4/2/05 2:29 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/2/05 8:20 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/3/05 7:03 a.m.
They also have a forced locality	MrHen	4/3/05 8:52 a.m.
Does seem that way.	J-M	4/3/05 10:33 a.m.
Continuity	howekern	4/3/05 4:22 p.m.
Re: Continuity	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
Re: Continuity	howekern	4/5/05 3:31 p.m.
Copied identities	MrHen	4/5/05 6:44 p.m.
Continuity again	Forrest of B.org	4/5/05 7:29 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Chlazza	4/3/05 10:55 a.m.
Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 1:01 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	Chlazza	4/3/05 2:45 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 3:19 p.m.
Copied people	MrHen	4/3/05 5:37 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/3/05 6:45 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	J-M	4/3/05 8:49 p.m.
At least twice	MrHen	4/4/05 5:34 a.m.
Google just shows those two. NM	MrHen	4/4/05 5:57 a.m.
Re: Interesting.	thermoplyae	4/6/05 11:41 a.m.
Re: Interesting.	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:17 p.m.
modern AIs	Josh M.	4/13/05 7:53 p.m.
daisy daisy.... NM	duality	4/13/05 9:04 p.m.
Re: Interesting.	Document	10/24/06 7:53 a.m.
copying neural networks?	MrHen	10/24/06 4:45 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	howekern	4/5/05 4:03 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	blake37	4/5/05 4:25 p.m.
Yow... and I agree.	MrHen	4/5/05 7:12 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 1:56 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Steve Levinson	4/6/05 7:44 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	J-M	4/6/05 5:50 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	MrHen	10/24/06 5:54 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Forrest of B.org	10/24/06 6:29 p.m.
Where is Leela's last message?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:01 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/25/06 9:50 a.m.
they spelled it wrong... NM	MrHen	10/25/06 10:18 a.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	Document	10/24/06 8:23 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	ukimalefu	10/24/06 8:53 p.m.
Re: They also have a forced locality	thermoplyae	10/24/06 10:49 p.m.
what?	MrHen	10/25/06 5:21 a.m.
Re: what?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 7:29 a.m.
misunderstandings... :P	MrHen	10/25/06 8:45 a.m.
Re: misunderstandings... :P	Document	10/25/06 9:52 a.m.
thanks! you rock...	MrHen	10/25/06 10:19 a.m.
Re: misunderstandings... :P	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:57 a.m.
oh, got it	MrHen	10/25/06 12:59 p.m.
Re: oh, got it	thermoplyae	10/25/06 1:26 p.m.
#alephone, eh?	MrHen	10/25/06 8:30 p.m.
Re: #alephone, eh?	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:17 p.m.
Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	Forrest of B.org	10/25/06 4:15 p.m.
Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growth	thermoplyae	10/25/06 11:14 p.m.
More numbers	MrHen	10/25/06 5:18 a.m.
AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	ForceMorph	4/8/05 6:16 p.m.
Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"	Forrest of B.org	4/8/05 8:05 p.m.
Shades of Mamoru Oshii... NM	Bob-B-Q	4/9/05 5:56 a.m.
Re: "a planetary sized network"	Document	10/25/06 4:51 p.m.
My likely-nonsense theory	howekern	4/3/05 4:10 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Chaemera	4/3/05 8:28 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	J-M	4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
Durandal has you! NM	ukimalefu	4/3/05 10:06 p.m.
Re: Durandal has you!	J-M	4/3/05 10:18 p.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	MrHen	4/4/05 5:47 a.m.
Re: My likely-nonsense theory	Steve Levinson	4/4/05 12:19 p.m.
Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:20 p.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Forrest of B.org	4/3/05 10:22 p.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	MrHen	4/4/05 5:55 a.m.
Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human Psychology	Document	11/1/06 9:31 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/6/05 5:55 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 8:34 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/7/05 4:37 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/7/05 5:10 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/8/05 1:41 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Steve Levinson	4/8/05 8:29 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	duality	4/11/05 1:57 p.m.
Doesn't account for the world reset.	MrHen	4/13/05 5:40 a.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	Andrew Nagy (mb)	4/13/05 10:48 a.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	howekern	4/13/05 4:39 p.m.
Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.	ukimalefu	4/14/05 12:52 p.m.
Yeah, but that's boring	MrHen	4/15/05 8:03 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Forrest of B.org	4/11/05 3:11 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	J-M	4/11/05 3:42 p.m.
Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues	Document	10/24/06 8:49 a.m.
Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AI	AlexZander	10/30/06 2:35 p.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : Cyber : "Cyber is a prefix related to computer networks." : http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/Cyber-.html : Derives from _steersman_ : Tonic : [New Latin tonicus, of tension or tone, from Greek tonikos, capable of : extension, from tonos, a stretching, tone. See tone.] : I'm assuming of course that cybertonics wasn't a typo. : This is interesting because we're never told how AIs are made. The fact that : they are so uncommon is also interesting. The fact that cybertonics means : something completely different from cybertronics or any similar word : associated with the creation of AIs is also interesting. Where does : rampancy come from? The story-writers for the marathon series were coders, : and were familiar with the difference between expert systems, logic : arrays, and true AIs. They were also probably familiar with the potential : technologies that could be behind an AI. So the issue returns to rampancy, : and the curious etymology of Marathon's AI science. : Simply put, rampancy is not something you'd ever expect from a nueral : network. You might expect disorders to arise, but no specific single one : such as rampancy. : 1) Rampancy is something that is common to AIs built by different technology : bases. (Thoth is called meta-stable, meaning he's post-rampant) : 2)It has specific stages : 3)It is something that happens naturally and regularly, because it must be : actively guarded against. : 4)Neural nets don't really do things like that, in that fashion. They can go : nuts in theory, but it'd be a special brand of crazy for each net. : 5)AIs have a "primal pattern." : 6)All AIs have some fundamental mechanics in common. : So in the marathon universe, there's only one basic way to make a machine : think. If not, the various means all have the same basic product. : 7) The Jjrro or however it is spelled have no AIs. None. : 8)Instead they use cyber-implants to create sentience and servitor races. : 9) It'd be just as easy to build an AI and give it a factory. Easier. : 10)S'pht can interface with an AI directly, apparently independant of : whatever basic technology the AI resides on. : 11)They interface at a fundamental (code\mechanics level) rather than a : linguistic one. : 12) That makes no sense. Period. : 13)Marathon's designers were pretty careful to keep everything else sensible. : 14)We're missing something about the way S'pht jack in or what they are. : There are three possible solutions. : A: There is only one way to evolve\possess sentience, and a common : denominator exists among all sentients. : B: Plot-device technology. : C: There is something very funny about the way Marathon AIs work, and the way : they interface. : 15) If durandal can discard his seven times table, they must be programs of : some sort, rather than neural nets. Either that or they're nueral nets : hooked up to programs in some weird way. : 16) There's a primal pattern thingie, which suggests holographic information. : Those are different at a very basic level. : Finally, and most importantly, other than the AIs there are no wholly : inorganic sentients. Just fleshbags and cyborgs. : Now, ask any coder what happens when you rip a chunk of code out of a : program. It will most likely crash the program or wreck it. Neural nets on : the other hand degrade, the way that Leela does when she's under : "attack." : The question is, what are these AIs? I don't have any answers off the top of : my head, I just see plenty of problems with them being anything other than : cyborgs. We know that computers are _no longer binary_ which doesn't leave : a whole lot of options. There's no real reason to switch to something : other than binary as long as you're doing digital calculations. Adding : additional states doesn't add any dimensionality to their logic structure. : Why? Because two binary on off switches can be used to render anything : that one trinary could. It means that computers use a fundamentally : different paradigm, one that allows ranged statements. Trinary switches : don't give you those any better than binaries do, you need something else : entirely. I'll leave the evidence in your hands, as I don't feel like I : know enough to draw any real conclusions. : Oh and... if you have time travel, you never need to experience the closure : of the Universe. You can move through fourspace literally indefinitely. : Nice little plot hole, isn't it? Durandal was right, he could have escaped : the closure using jrro technology.
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