/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/


Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues
Posted By: J-MDate: 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.

Cyber
"Cyber is a prefix related to computer networks."
http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/Cyber-.html

Derives from _steersman_

Tonic
[New Latin tonicus, of tension or tone, from Greek tonikos, capable of extension, from tonos, a stretching, tone. See tone.]

I'm assuming of course that cybertonics wasn't a typo.

This is interesting because we're never told how AIs are made. The fact that they are so uncommon is also interesting. The fact that cybertonics means something completely different from cybertronics or any similar word associated with the creation of AIs is also interesting. Where does rampancy come from? The story-writers for the marathon series were coders, and were familiar with the difference between expert systems, logic arrays, and true AIs. They were also probably familiar with the potential technologies that could be behind an AI. So the issue returns to rampancy, and the curious etymology of Marathon's AI science.

Simply put, rampancy is not something you'd ever expect from a nueral network. You might expect disorders to arise, but no specific single one such as rampancy.

1) Rampancy is something that is common to AIs built by different technology bases. (Thoth is called meta-stable, meaning he's post-rampant)
2)It has specific stages
3)It is something that happens naturally and regularly, because it must be actively guarded against.
4)Neural nets don't really do things like that, in that fashion. They can go nuts in theory, but it'd be a special brand of crazy for each net.
5)AIs have a "primal pattern."
6)All AIs have some fundamental mechanics in common.

So in the marathon universe, there's only one basic way to make a machine think. If not, the various means all have the same basic product.

7) The Jjrro or however it is spelled have no AIs. None.
8)Instead they use cyber-implants to create sentience and servitor races.
9) It'd be just as easy to build an AI and give it a factory. Easier.
10)S'pht can interface with an AI directly, apparently independant of whatever basic technology the AI resides on.
11)They interface at a fundamental (code\mechanics level) rather than a linguistic one.
12) That makes no sense. Period.
13)Marathon's designers were pretty careful to keep everything else sensible.
14)We're missing something about the way S'pht jack in or what they are.

There are three possible solutions.
A: There is only one way to evolve\possess sentience, and a common denominator exists among all sentients.
B: Plot-device technology.
C: There is something very funny about the way Marathon AIs work, and the way they interface.

15) If durandal can discard his seven times table, they must be programs of some sort, rather than neural nets. Either that or they're nueral nets hooked up to programs in some weird way.
16) There's a primal pattern thingie, which suggests holographic information.

Those are different at a very basic level.

Finally, and most importantly, other than the AIs there are no wholly inorganic sentients. Just fleshbags and cyborgs.

Now, ask any coder what happens when you rip a chunk of code out of a program. It will most likely crash the program or wreck it. Neural nets on the other hand degrade, the way that Leela does when she's under "attack."

The question is, what are these AIs? I don't have any answers off the top of my head, I just see plenty of problems with them being anything other than cyborgs. We know that computers are _no longer binary_ which doesn't leave a whole lot of options. There's no real reason to switch to something other than binary as long as you're doing digital calculations. Adding additional states doesn't add any dimensionality to their logic structure. Why? Because two binary on off switches can be used to render anything that one trinary could. It means that computers use a fundamentally different paradigm, one that allows ranged statements. Trinary switches don't give you those any better than binaries do, you need something else entirely. I'll leave the evidence in your hands, as I don't feel like I know enough to draw any real conclusions.

Oh and... if you have time travel, you never need to experience the closure of the Universe. You can move through fourspace literally indefinitely. Nice little plot hole, isn't it? Durandal was right, he could have escaped the closure using jrro technology.

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Pre-2004 Posts


Replies:

Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issues *NM*J-M 4/2/05 1:37 p.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/2/05 1:38 p.m.
           Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesBob-B-Q 4/2/05 2:29 p.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesduality 4/2/05 8:20 p.m.
           Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/3/05 7:03 a.m.
     They also have a forced localityMrHen 4/3/05 8:52 a.m.
           Does seem that way.J-M 4/3/05 10:33 a.m.
                 Continuityhowekern 4/3/05 4:22 p.m.
                       Re: ContinuityJ-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
                             Re: Continuityhowekern 4/5/05 3:31 p.m.
                                   Copied identitiesMrHen 4/5/05 6:44 p.m.
                                         Continuity againForrest of B.org 4/5/05 7:29 p.m.
           Re: They also have a forced localityChlazza 4/3/05 10:55 a.m.
                 Interesting.J-M 4/3/05 1:01 p.m.
                       Re: Interesting.Chlazza 4/3/05 2:45 p.m.
                             Re: Interesting.J-M 4/3/05 3:19 p.m.
                                   Copied peopleMrHen 4/3/05 5:37 p.m.
                             Re: Interesting.thermoplyae 4/3/05 6:45 p.m.
                                   Re: Interesting.J-M 4/3/05 8:49 p.m.
                                         At least twiceMrHen 4/4/05 5:34 a.m.
                                               Google just shows those two. *NM*MrHen 4/4/05 5:57 a.m.
                                         Re: Interesting.thermoplyae 4/6/05 11:41 a.m.
                       Re: Interesting.Chaemera 4/3/05 8:17 p.m.
                       modern AIsJosh M. 4/13/05 7:53 p.m.
                             daisy daisy.... *NM*duality 4/13/05 9:04 p.m.
                       Re: Interesting.Document 10/24/06 7:53 a.m.
                             copying neural networks?MrHen 10/24/06 4:45 p.m.
           Re: They also have a forced localityhowekern 4/5/05 4:03 p.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localityblake37 4/5/05 4:25 p.m.
                 Yow... and I agree.MrHen 4/5/05 7:12 p.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localityJ-M 4/6/05 1:56 a.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localitySteve Levinson 4/6/05 7:44 a.m.
                       Re: They also have a forced localityJ-M 4/6/05 5:50 p.m.
                 Re: They also have a forced localityMrHen 10/24/06 5:54 p.m.
                       Re: They also have a forced localityForrest of B.org 10/24/06 6:29 p.m.
                             Where is Leela's last message?MrHen 10/25/06 5:01 a.m.
                             Re: They also have a forced localityDocument 10/25/06 9:50 a.m.
                                   they spelled it wrong... *NM*MrHen 10/25/06 10:18 a.m.
                       Re: They also have a forced localityDocument 10/24/06 8:23 p.m.
                             Re: They also have a forced localityukimalefu 10/24/06 8:53 p.m.
                                   Re: They also have a forced localitythermoplyae 10/24/06 10:49 p.m.
                                         what?MrHen 10/25/06 5:21 a.m.
                                               Re: what?thermoplyae 10/25/06 7:29 a.m.
                                                     misunderstandings... :PMrHen 10/25/06 8:45 a.m.
                                                           Re: misunderstandings... :PDocument 10/25/06 9:52 a.m.
                                                                 thanks! you rock...MrHen 10/25/06 10:19 a.m.
                                                           Re: misunderstandings... :Pthermoplyae 10/25/06 11:57 a.m.
                                                                 oh, got itMrHen 10/25/06 12:59 p.m.
                                                                       Re: oh, got itthermoplyae 10/25/06 1:26 p.m.
                                                                             #alephone, eh?MrHen 10/25/06 8:30 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: #alephone, eh?thermoplyae 10/25/06 11:17 p.m.
                                                                 Rampancy and Exponentiatial GrowthForrest of B.org 10/25/06 4:15 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Rampancy and Exponentiatial Growththermoplyae 10/25/06 11:14 p.m.
                             More numbersMrHen 10/25/06 5:18 a.m.
           AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"ForceMorph 4/8/05 6:16 p.m.
                 Re: AIs as "Ghosts in the machine"Forrest of B.org 4/8/05 8:05 p.m.
                       Shades of Mamoru Oshii... *NM*Bob-B-Q 4/9/05 5:56 a.m.
           Re: "a planetary sized network"Document 10/25/06 4:51 p.m.
     My likely-nonsense theoryhowekern 4/3/05 4:10 p.m.
           Re: My likely-nonsense theoryChaemera 4/3/05 8:28 p.m.
                 Re: My likely-nonsense theoryJ-M 4/3/05 8:45 p.m.
                       Durandal has you! *NM*ukimalefu 4/3/05 10:06 p.m.
                             Re: Durandal has you!J-M 4/3/05 10:18 p.m.
                       Re: My likely-nonsense theoryMrHen 4/4/05 5:47 a.m.
                             Re: My likely-nonsense theorySteve Levinson 4/4/05 12:19 p.m.
     Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyForrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:20 p.m.
           Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyForrest of B.org 4/3/05 10:22 p.m.
                 Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyMrHen 4/4/05 5:55 a.m.
                 Re: Stages of Rampancy in Human PsychologyDocument 11/1/06 9:31 a.m.
     Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/6/05 5:55 p.m.
           Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesForrest of B.org 4/7/05 8:34 a.m.
                 Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/7/05 4:37 p.m.
                       Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesForrest of B.org 4/7/05 5:10 p.m.
                             Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/8/05 1:41 a.m.
                                   Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesSteve Levinson 4/8/05 8:29 a.m.
                                         Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesduality 4/11/05 1:57 p.m.
                                               Doesn't account for the world reset.MrHen 4/13/05 5:40 a.m.
                                                     Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.Andrew Nagy (mb) 4/13/05 10:48 a.m.
                                                           Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.howekern 4/13/05 4:39 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Doesn't account for the world reset.ukimalefu 4/14/05 12:52 p.m.
                                                                 Yeah, but that's boringMrHen 4/15/05 8:03 a.m.
                                   Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesForrest of B.org 4/11/05 3:11 p.m.
                                         Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesJ-M 4/11/05 3:42 p.m.
                                               Re: Cybertonics, AIs, and fundamental issuesDocument 10/24/06 8:49 a.m.
                                                     Re: Cybertonics, The Autonomy of an AIAlexZander 10/30/06 2:35 p.m.

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