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Spirituality vs Rationality
Posted By: Forrest of B.orgDate: 8/12/05 3:34 p.m.

In Response To: meh (MrHen)

: Well, I guess we disagree as to what makes something or someone spiritual or
: rational. But what you say makes sense, so I'll leave it at that.

I'm curious how you would define rational and spiritual.

The most abstract and inclusive definitions I can think of, and thus prefer to use, are:

Rationality is seeking to build model(s) of reality and/or morality in explicit, reasoned, bottom-up terms... looking at the small pieces first, making sure they're right, because they logically have to be, and then blindly assembling them to get whatever conclusion you reach, with no particular end in sight. It's the approach of using your logic, as opposed to your feelings.

Spirituality, on the other hand, is seeking to build model(s) of reality and/or morality in implicit, intuitive, top-up terms... you can see the ends, you know they're right, you can feel it, but you don't necessarily know why they are right or how you reached those conclusions. It's the approach of using your feelings, as opposed to your logic.

The (somewhat humorous) metaphor that comes to mind is building a tower out of bricks and balloons. You can make some pretty big things just suspending things with balloons, but balloons are fragile and prone to bursting, and besides, with nothing to tie them down they'd just float away into oblivion. Bricks, on the other hand, are sturdy and stable and down to earth, and while you can stack bricks pretty damn tall, it's a lot easier to get things up in the air with balloons.

So the approach I use and advocate is to float your balloons (beliefs and propositions) up there and see if you can build your bricks (theories and observations) up along that framework. This isn't to say "make the data fit the model" - if you can build higher with bricks than your balloons will float, you've got some crappy balloons and by all means, use the bricks to get higher. And certainly don't support your structure on balloons alone. And for god's sake test your brick structure, make sure it's not just resting on the balloon-strings before you try to build something bigger off of it.

It's basically the scientific method. We look at the data, and we make an intuitive guess, a hypothesis, "I think things work like this." Then we see if the available data can build up to that. If so, we call that "guess" a theory now - our bricks are sturdy and stable at that height - and if not, we know that we can't build very stable structures at that height yet.

The important distinction is, just because you don't know how to build your bricks that high yet, doesn't mean "that high" doesn't exist - we may someday find some way to build up to that from the bottom. What it does mean, is that those lofty notions are like balloons - fragile, easily swayed or destroyed, unstable, and not something you can count on for very good support. But they're up there, high and inspiring, and someday we'll find a way of building up to that height. It's good to keep in mind the distinction between a felt, intuitive "belief" and a logical, reasoned "theory", but you shouldn't outright dismiss one or the other. Beliefs are inspiring and guiding; theories are stable and supportive; and both are indispensable.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Marathon PfhorD-M.A. 8/2/05 6:01 a.m.
     Re: Marathon PfhorJohn Molloy 8/2/05 6:41 a.m.
     Re: Marathon PfhorVid Boi 8/2/05 9:33 a.m.
           tBC's and Frigidman's replies are kinda intriguin *NM*D-M.A. 8/2/05 10:49 a.m.
                 Yeah, maybe. *NM*Bob-B-Q 8/2/05 11:35 a.m.
                 that's what i would have doneMrHen 8/2/05 2:07 p.m.
                       Re: that's what i would have doneVid Boi 8/2/05 11:48 p.m.
                             It's not dead, it's 11 pages long and counting! *NM*D-M.A. 8/2/05 11:54 p.m.
                                   11 pages long, counting, and not about 'Thon... *NM*Vid Boi 8/4/05 1:48 a.m.
           *sigh* I'll never get a PC Forge... *NM*reagan64 8/5/05 6:14 p.m.
     Re: Marathon PfhorReiginko 8/3/05 5:31 a.m.
           Re: Marathon PfhorD-M.A. 8/3/05 6:01 a.m.
                 Re: Marathon PfhorOri 8/3/05 6:33 a.m.
                       Re: Marathon PfhorJacke 8/3/05 10:47 a.m.
                             Re: Marathon PfhorJohn Molloy 8/3/05 1:17 p.m.
                             ehh...MrHen 8/3/05 1:57 p.m.
                             Re: Marathon PfhorD-M.A. 8/3/05 6:06 p.m.
                                   Re: Marathon PfhorJohn Molloy 8/3/05 6:32 p.m.
                                         Re: Marathon PfhorForrest of B.org 8/3/05 6:59 p.m.
                                               Re: Marathon PfhorJohn Molloy 8/3/05 7:06 p.m.
                                                     Re: Marathon PfhorVid Boi 8/4/05 2:15 a.m.
                                               Someone thinks I'm bright! Happy joy joy :-) *NM*D-M.A. 8/4/05 3:53 a.m.
                                         if by all men...MrHen 8/4/05 4:55 a.m.
                                               Re: if by all men...Forrest of B.org 8/4/05 6:01 p.m.
                                                     I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, Forrest? *NM*Steve Levinson 8/4/05 7:18 p.m.
                                                           Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestForrest of B.org 8/4/05 8:43 p.m.
                                                                 Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestD-M.A. 8/4/05 11:09 p.m.
                                                                       Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestForrest of B.org 8/5/05 7:57 a.m.
                                                                             Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestJohn Molloy 8/5/05 2:28 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestForrest of B.org 8/6/05 10:07 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestJohn Molloy 8/6/05 11:42 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestJohannes Gunnar 8/7/05 12:31 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestJohannes Gunnar 8/7/05 12:31 a.m.
                                                                             Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestVid Boi 8/7/05 12:49 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: I'm curious - are *you* in that photo, ForrestAndrew Nagy 8/8/05 6:46 a.m.
                                                                                         Off! Weirdness... *NM*Vid Boi 8/8/05 4:10 p.m.
                                                     I like the fishnets Forrestblake37 8/5/05 3:06 a.m.
                                                     LOL! i like your outfit Forrest! :P *NM*Johannes Gunnar 8/5/05 4:32 a.m.
                                               Re: if by all men...Vid Boi 8/7/05 12:56 a.m.
                                                     I hate that term.MrHen 8/7/05 6:15 a.m.
                                                           Re: I hate that term.Steve Levinson 8/7/05 10:45 a.m.
                                                                 agreedMrHen 8/8/05 5:01 a.m.
                                                                       Re: agreedSteve Levinson 8/8/05 6:03 a.m.
                                                                             Re: agreedblake37 8/8/05 6:50 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: agreedSteve Levinson 8/8/05 8:14 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: agreedMrHen 8/8/05 10:26 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: agreedblake37 8/8/05 4:03 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: agreedVid Boi 8/8/05 4:32 p.m.
                                                                                               haha, yeah...MrHen 8/8/05 5:39 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: haha, yeah...Tyler 8/9/05 6:41 a.m.
                                                                             ah, okayMrHen 8/8/05 9:59 a.m.
                                                                 Re: I hate that term.Dylan 8/9/05 4:28 a.m.
                                                                       uh... now i'm confused...MrHen 8/9/05 5:17 a.m.
                                                                             Re: uh... now i'm confused...Dylan 8/9/05 8:59 a.m.
                                                                                   hating terminals? *gasp!*MrHen 8/9/05 9:23 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: uh... now i'm confused...AlfredMordeir 8/9/05 7:00 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: uh... now i'm confused...MrHen 8/10/05 4:52 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: uh... now i'm confused...Dylan 8/11/05 4:39 a.m.
                                                                                               I usually don't copy articles but, Oh well.AlfredMordeir 8/11/05 8:54 a.m.
                                                                                   Social DarwinismDave 8/10/05 2:53 a.m.
                                                                                         more on social darwinismMrHen 8/10/05 5:10 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: more on social darwinismReiginko 8/10/05 6:47 a.m.
                                                                                                     Ohh...MrHen 8/10/05 8:46 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: more on social darwinismVid Boi 8/10/05 11:40 a.m.
                                                                                                           Haha, that's terrible. *NM*MrHen 8/11/05 5:05 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: more on social darwinismMrHen 8/11/05 5:19 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: more on social darwinismDave 8/11/05 7:10 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: more on social darwinismReiginko 8/11/05 7:49 a.m.
                                                                                                                       god of the gapsMrHen 8/11/05 8:32 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: more on social darwinismForrest of B.org 8/11/05 9:19 a.m.
                                                                                                           Re: more on social darwinismForrest of B.org 8/11/05 9:17 a.m.
                                                                                                                 not a fan of the linkMrHen 8/12/05 12:56 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: not a fan of the linkForrest of B.org 8/12/05 1:16 p.m.
                                                                                                                             mehMrHen 8/12/05 2:24 p.m.
                                                                                                                                   Spirituality vs RationalityForrest of B.org 8/12/05 3:34 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Re: Spirituality vs RationalityMrHen 8/13/05 10:42 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: more on social darwinismBen A. Potter 8/11/05 11:20 a.m.
                                                                                                                 truthMrHen 8/12/05 12:05 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: truthBen A. Potter 8/12/05 12:40 p.m.
                                                                                                                             agreedMrHen 8/12/05 1:01 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: more on social darwinismBen A. Potter 8/10/05 9:04 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: more on social darwinismSteve Levinson 8/10/05 12:25 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: more on social darwinismBen A. Potter 8/10/05 1:12 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: more on social darwinismDave 8/10/05 6:35 p.m.
                                                                                         Re: Social DarwinismDylan 8/11/05 5:02 a.m.
                                                                                               CreationismMrHen 8/11/05 5:15 a.m.
                                                                                               Re: Social DarwinismBen A. Potter 8/11/05 11:10 a.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Social DarwinismEnkidu 8/11/05 4:20 p.m.
                                                                 "Fundamentalists" and slippery-slopesMrHen 8/9/05 5:27 a.m.
                                                                       Has anybody noticed....blake37 8/9/05 7:06 a.m.
                                                                             and talk about off-topic . . . *NM*Steve Levinson 8/9/05 7:30 a.m.
                                                                             :PMrHen 8/9/05 7:52 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Has anybody noticed....D-M.A. 8/9/05 7:58 a.m.
                                                                       Re: "Fundamentalists" and slippery-slopesVid Boi 8/10/05 11:53 a.m.
                                                                             Re: "Fundamentalists" and slippery-slopesblake37 8/10/05 12:53 p.m.
                                                                             oops... *blushes* *NM*MrHen 8/11/05 5:16 a.m.
           Re: Marathon PfhorForrest of B.org 8/3/05 6:54 p.m.
                 Re: Marathon PfhorJohn Molloy 8/3/05 7:02 p.m.
                       Re: Marathon PfhorForrest of B.org 8/3/05 7:13 p.m.
                             Re: Marathon PfhorJohn Molloy 8/3/05 7:20 p.m.
                                   Re: Marathon PfhorForrest of B.org 8/3/05 7:40 p.m.
                                         Re: Marathon PfhorReiginko 8/4/05 12:19 a.m.
                                               Re: Marathon PfhorVid Boi 8/4/05 2:19 a.m.
                                               Re: Marathon PfhorForrest of B.org 8/4/05 6:19 p.m.
                                                     Re: Marathon PfhorReiginko 8/5/05 6:57 a.m.
                                                           Re: Marathon PfhorForrest of B.org 8/5/05 8:14 a.m.
                             Re: Marathon PfhorVid Boi 8/4/05 2:24 a.m.
                                   Re: Marathon PfhorMrHen 8/4/05 5:06 a.m.
                             oh... that makes much more sense...MrHen 8/4/05 5:11 a.m.
                                   Re: oh... that makes much more sense...Steve Levinson 8/4/05 1:04 p.m.
                                         Rumor updateukimalefu 8/4/05 7:49 p.m.
                                               Re: Rumor updateRedMage13 8/5/05 3:49 p.m.
                 Re: Marathon PfhorAndrew Nagy 8/8/05 7:53 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

 

 

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