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Re: Hmmm...
Posted By: DogFish <mangaijin@aol.com>Date: 2/3/00 4:24 a.m.

In Response To: Hmmm... (Xian)

> 1. This assumes everyone wants to accomplish the goal. But a
> utilitarian and selfish player might simply wish to kill Covs.
> Even worse is when no one on the team wants to be the driver (or
> EVERYONE wants to be the driver)...

Well, if accomplishing the goal = winning, that might help motivate some. I admit, lots of gamers will find more appeal in spreading around lots of high explosives and watching the pretty kabooms they made than in actually thinking and working towards a common goal. These people are boring (after a point); maybe there could be a special kind of game for them - HaloRena or some such, and they could all hop in there and frag each other to bits while those who want team play can have that elsewhere. Or maybe I'm just getting frustrated :)

BTW, what do you consider to be "utilitarian"?

> 2. Another good idea, except I can see teams degenerating into
> two roles... Info Guys or Big Guys... so you have a huge team of
> info guys all kamakaze running for the info or just a huge team
> of Death-dealing marines that simply destroy all resistance.
> Going again to point 1, even if diversity is needed, players
> might not want it (if it's not fun for them)... how do you make
> the player go into a role that he/she may not want but would be
> good for the team?

Get more players? I'm not saying Halo should become a job; it's a game after all, and games are for fun above all else. But point 1, the team goal, seems kind of crucial - it's more than an issue of level design, it's an issue of game philosophy. Will Halo be a team game? If it is, team players will do well, and grandstanders won't. It's in the nature of the game. Look at football. Great game, founded on Point 1. QB throws, receivers run fast and catch, linemen block and so forth. Nobody is bored, everyone is needed. Those who screw around doing their own thing accomplish nothing and they know it.
If Halo is not a team game, there'll be enough bullets, tanks, marines and whatnot for everyone to go around. No co-op = no personality conflicts.
If Halo is supposed to be a team game but plays like a solo game or vice versa, that's a cockup on Bungie's part.

> 3. Again, going against point 1, this assumes the players will
> use their resources wisely. But if I'm looking out for my own
> interests then I'd load myself out with every weapon I could lay
> my hands on, then hop into a BAT... and lay waste to as many
> Covs as possible! (If I was fragging hungry player- which many
> public players will be) What's to stop me? The unhappiness of my
> teammates? Death? Hell, I wouldn't mind dying if I took 20 Covs
> with me! (not really, but speaking from a Quaker's perspective
> ^_^)...

Make it so that BATs don't work that way. Drive off in a BAT by yourself and you'll get pureed by Cov anti-tank weapons that could easily have been taken out by a Marine with a rocket launcher, or however else you want to balance it. Remember the first time your Battleships in Warcraft started catching rockets from a sub you could've easily seen if you only had a Zeppelin to spot them... I think most people would get frustrated when their "bad" play wasn't rewarded and either quit playing Halo or start paying attention to some veterans and see what actually works.
Then, there will be the idiots. The ones who shoot their teammates for kicks, always steal the jeep first thing and get it blown up right away. The ones who run into a formation of Covs slinging bullets and grenades because they aren't interested in strategy or tactics but in velocity and pyrotechnics.
Even if they get booted to an observer camera after just one death, they'll still come right into the next game and do it again. They'll think it's funny, too. They'll see how violently they can be destroyed just to try and launch their body parts farther across the screen, never mind that the team needed those parts to complete the mission. Munchkins.
How does a game designer address style of play (or lack thereof)?
We may end up with a lot of invitation-only clan-to-clan play if resource allocation is really strict. "You don't play smart, you don't play with us". I wish I could think of something better.

> Anyways, this was just a nitpick presenting worst-case
> scenarios... usually team online games are really about the
> people you play with, but this is a hypothetical exercise to see
> if there are any measures a developer can take to make team
> goals more appealing even to the selfish player...

Making team play appeal to the selfish borders on oxymoronic, doesn't it? By definition, the selfish don't derive pleasure from team success, they derive it from personal indulgence.
Please pardon my incoherence, or at least blame it on the hour :)
DF

Message Index



Replies:

Fear of Death: Punishment & Reward...Xian 2/2/00 12:53 p.m.
     Re: Fear of Death: Punishment & Reward...DogFish 2/2/00 1:20 p.m.
           Hmmm...Xian 2/2/00 1:49 p.m.
                 Re: Hmmm...Regdren 2/2/00 3:31 p.m.
                       Re: Hmmm...Adam 2/2/00 10:35 p.m.
                             Well...Xian 2/2/00 10:54 p.m.
                                   Re: Well...Adam 2/3/00 12:24 a.m.
                                         Re: Well...phayd 2/4/00 8:53 a.m.
                                               Re: Well...o 2/4/00 11:51 p.m.
                                                     Re: Well...phayd 2/6/00 4:44 p.m.
                                                           I never mentioned this before, but...Stryker 2/6/00 5:37 p.m.
                                                                 Re: I never mentioned this before, but...phayd 2/7/00 4:28 p.m.
                 Re: Hmmm...Desio 2/2/00 3:31 p.m.
                 Re: Hmmm...DogFish 2/3/00 4:24 a.m.
                       Responding (long; for everyone)Xian 2/3/00 11:59 a.m.
           Re: Fear of Death: Punishment & Reward...Br'fin 2/2/00 1:50 p.m.
     Re: Fear of Death: Punishment & Reward...Ragnarok 2/2/00 6:00 p.m.
           Re: Fear of Death: Punishment & Reward...Giule 2/2/00 8:30 p.m.
           Re: Fear of Death: Punishment & Reward...mud 2/2/00 9:13 p.m.
                 Re: Fear of Death: Punishment & Reward...Ragnarok 2/3/00 10:13 a.m.
     limited lives theory + ramblingXZCion 2/2/00 8:45 p.m.
           Re: limited lives theory + ramblingRagnarok 2/2/00 9:27 p.m.



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