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Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs Absolute
Posted By: Forrest of B.orgDate: 10/3/05 1:12 p.m.

In Response To: Another note to self... (Forrest of B.org)

Boss is taking a nap, so here's my say in brief...

The single, infinite, all-encompassing, absolute reality is objective. That is to say that there is only one, no matter who, when, or where you are, and it must necessarily exist and be perfect, complete, for it is by definition all of that which must necessarily exist, and so it must be perfect or complete. Whatever it is that it is, is "the truth". To deny that it exists is to say "there is no truth", which is a manifest contradiction.

This is to say nothing about the specifics of its nature, or any measurements of it. All measurements are subjective and relative - our understanding of reality, our knowledge, is finite and flawed, and as the finite cannot 'become' infinite (because the infinite is eternal and as such never comes in or out of being), it is necessary that our understanding must always, and for everyone, be finite and flawed.

That's the entire point of collaborative conversation: you're partly wrong, so is the other guy, there is only one "right" and it must, being infinite, necessarily be greater than the both of you, who are finite. So if you want to be "more right" you'd damn well try to find a way to incorporate other people's views coherently into yours. In doing this, you not only ask yourself "can I dumb down my view to match his?", but to double-check if you're really right and already understand better than him, try to see if you can show him how, even though he thinks he disagrees with you, you don't disagree with him: "I see your point of view and how it is right in that limited extent, BUT... this, and that, and the other thing. You see?" and if you can help him follow along from his view, without destroying it, to see how your view is compatible, THEN you can be pretty damn sure you've got a better understanding than him; or had, since he should now have the same understanding as you. (Unless he disagrees on the particulars of this, that, and the other thing, which are then whole new sub-conversations to have).

So in the end, it winds up looking like a game of persuasion and manipulation, but not in an evil deceitful way, because you're trying to convince each other of the truth while hopefully learning at the same time. If you are really more right than they are, it should be simple to show them the missing pieces to add to their world-view (and you should be able to found those missing pieces on universal axioms like the principle of consistency, etc, that they already accept), to bring it up to equal your world-view. If not, and they can show you where your argument is wrong, then maybe your world-view isn't really "more right" than theirs, and then you've got something to learn from their advice, rather than they from yours; or maybe you both need to learn from each other to get the "big picture".

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Replies:

Mapping communitygoran 9/27/05 11:52 a.m.
     Re: Mapping communityBlake37 9/27/05 12:11 p.m.
     Re: Mapping communityNick Hoad 9/27/05 1:30 p.m.
     Re: Mapping communityMe_43 9/27/05 8:23 p.m.
           Re: Mapping communitygoran 9/28/05 12:38 a.m.
                 Re: Mapping communityRyokoTK 9/28/05 3:25 a.m.
                       Re: Mapping communitygoran 9/28/05 5:23 a.m.
                             Re: Mapping communityForrest of B.org 9/28/05 8:18 a.m.
                             Re: Mapping communityNick Hoad 9/28/05 12:52 p.m.
                                   Re: Mapping communityRyokoTK 9/28/05 5:23 p.m.
                             Re: Mapping communityellio7t 9/30/05 9:15 a.m.
                 ****To mapping community****me_43 9/28/05 11:45 p.m.
                       Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously. *NM*RyokoTK 9/29/05 3:39 a.m.
                             Re: Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously.Simon/team Sigma 9/29/05 3:50 a.m.
                       Re: ****To mapping community****goran 9/29/05 4:02 a.m.
                       Can't we all just get along? *NM*Bob-B-Q 9/29/05 4:47 a.m.
                             Re: Can't we all just get along?Simon/team Sigma 9/29/05 5:11 a.m.
                             Consider the circumstances.RyokoTK 9/29/05 12:38 p.m.
                                   Re: Consider the circumstances.me_43 10/4/05 3:19 a.m.
                       I'm with Bob-B-Q on thisReiginko 9/29/05 5:33 a.m.
                             Re: I'm with Bob-B-Q on thisme_43 9/29/05 6:38 a.m.
                                   To all of you...Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 7:47 a.m.
                                         Re: To all of you...kyjel 9/29/05 9:11 a.m.
                                         Re: To all of you...Jacke 9/29/05 9:51 a.m.
                                               Re: To all of you...Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 8:06 p.m.
                                                     Re: To all of you...goran 9/29/05 10:00 p.m.
                                                     Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotTyler 9/30/05 1:35 p.m.
                                                           Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotForrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:52 p.m.
                                                                 Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotForrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:53 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotTyler 9/30/05 2:57 p.m.
                                                                             Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotForrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:11 p.m.
                                                                       Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotSpeaker-To-Animals 10/1/05 7:31 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotBlake37 10/1/05 9:35 a.m.
                                                                                   Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the FobotForrest of B.org 10/3/05 2:13 p.m.
                                         stopgoran 9/29/05 10:44 a.m.
                                               I wouldn't see it as "preaching"MrHen 9/29/05 11:41 a.m.
                                               Re: stopForrest of B.org 9/29/05 2:40 p.m.
                                                     Re: stopForrest of B.org 9/29/05 8:01 p.m.
                                               Re: stopBob-B-Q 9/29/05 3:24 p.m.
                                                     Re: stopRyokoTK 9/29/05 3:29 p.m.
                                                           Re: stopForrest of B.org 9/29/05 7:49 p.m.
                                                           Re: stopgoran 9/29/05 9:54 p.m.
                                                                 Re: stopForrest of B.org 9/29/05 10:24 p.m.
                                                                       Re: stopgoran 9/30/05 3:10 a.m.
                                                                             Re: stopRyokoTK 9/30/05 4:07 a.m.
                                                                       Re: stopgoran 9/30/05 3:18 a.m.
                                                                             FROG BLAST THE VENT CORE!!!!!!! *NM*ukimalefu 9/30/05 4:58 a.m.
                                                                             Re: stopForrest of B.org 9/30/05 6:25 a.m.
                                                                                   Steve's housegoran 9/30/05 9:10 a.m.
                                                                                         Collaborative ConversationForrest of B.org 9/30/05 12:37 p.m.
                                                                                               Re: Collaborative ConversationForrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:32 p.m.
                                                                                                     Unsolicted advice (this time without anecdots)goran 9/30/05 4:39 p.m.
                                                                                                     Re: Collaborative Conversationgoran 9/30/05 5:10 p.m.
                                                                                                           Re: Collaborative ConversationD-M.A. 9/30/05 9:12 p.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Collaborative ConversationForrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:24 p.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Collaborative Conversationgoran 10/1/05 1:56 a.m.
                                                                                                                 Re: Collaborative Conversationgoran 10/1/05 12:52 a.m.
                                                                                                                       Re: Collaborative ConversationD-M.A. 10/1/05 1:39 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Collaborative ConversationD-M.A. 10/1/05 1:50 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Re: Collaborative Conversationgoran 10/1/05 2:46 a.m.
                                                                                                                             Re: Collaborative Conversationgoran 10/1/05 2:29 a.m.
                                                                                                                                   Another note to self...Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 12:10 p.m.
                                                                                                                                         Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs AbsoluteForrest of B.org 10/3/05 1:12 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               Applause! *NM*Blake37 10/3/05 1:42 p.m.
                                                                                                                                               addition: beliefs and mapsgoran 10/3/05 3:22 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: addition: beliefs and mapsD-M.A. 10/3/05 7:04 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                     Re: addition: beliefs and mapsForrest of B.org 10/3/05 7:07 p.m.
                                                                                                                                                           Re: addition: beliefs and mapsgoran 10/4/05 12:32 a.m.
                                                                                         MSF Story HourJacke 9/30/05 1:38 p.m.
                                         Re: To all of you...me_43 10/1/05 2:37 a.m.
                                               Re: To all of you...RyokoTK 10/1/05 4:00 a.m.
                                                     Re: To all of you...me_43 10/1/05 7:27 a.m.
                                                           Re: To all of you...Simon/team Sigma 10/1/05 12:17 p.m.
                                                                 Re: To all of you...Steve Levinson 10/1/05 7:07 p.m.
                                                                       Re: To all of you...C Lund 10/1/05 11:16 p.m.
                       Re: An objective opinion? Maybe.Blayne 9/29/05 7:40 a.m.
                       Re: ****To mapping community****Adam Ashwell 9/29/05 12:08 p.m.
                       To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listenSteve Levinson 9/30/05 9:08 p.m.
                             Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listenD-M.A. 9/30/05 9:22 p.m.
                             Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listenForrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:35 p.m.
                             Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listengoran 10/1/05 12:28 a.m.
                             Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listenme_43 10/1/05 2:45 a.m.
           Re: Mapping communityD-M.A. 9/29/05 10:42 a.m.
                 Re: Mapping communityme_43 10/5/05 10:01 p.m.
                       Can't see shit. *omg downloads*Me_43 10/5/05 11:27 p.m.
                             Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedReiginko 10/6/05 2:08 a.m.
                                   Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedForrest of B.org 10/6/05 6:51 a.m.
                                         Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedgoran 10/6/05 9:51 a.m.
                                               Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedForrest of B.org 10/6/05 2:16 p.m.
                                                     Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedme_43 10/7/05 2:06 a.m.
                                                           Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedgoran 10/7/05 2:54 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedNick Hoad 10/7/05 10:44 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedgoran 10/7/05 11:14 a.m.
                                                                             Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedNick Hoad 10/7/05 1:54 p.m.
                                                                                   Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedme_43 10/8/05 12:54 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedme_43 10/8/05 12:55 a.m.
                                                                                         Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedgoran 10/8/05 1:34 a.m.
                                                           Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedRyokoTK 10/7/05 3:12 a.m.
                                                                 Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedme_43 10/8/05 12:55 a.m.
                                                                       Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had diedRyokoTK 10/8/05 3:16 a.m.
                             Do you really think you can make better maps?RyokoTK 10/6/05 3:34 a.m.
                                   Re: Do you really think you can make better maps?Simon/team Sigma 10/6/05 3:55 a.m.
                       Re: Mapping communitygoran 10/6/05 4:14 a.m.
                             [end thread]me_43 10/6/05 5:06 a.m.
                                   Re: [end thread]D-M.A. 10/6/05 7:55 a.m.
                                   Re: [end thread]Dave 10/7/05 9:08 p.m.
                                         Re: [end thread]goran 10/8/05 1:32 a.m.
                                         Re: [end thread]goran 10/8/05 2:06 a.m.
                                               Re: [end thread]RyokoTK 10/8/05 3:16 a.m.
                       Re: Mapping communitygoran 10/6/05 4:53 a.m.
                       Re: Mapping communitygoran 10/6/05 11:55 a.m.

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