Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs Absolute


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Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs Absolute

Posted By: Forrest of B.org Date: 10/3/05 1:12 p.m.
In Response To: Another note to self... (Forrest of B.org)

Boss is taking a nap, so here's my say in brief...
The single, infinite, all-encompassing, absolute reality is objective. That is to say that there is only one, no matter who, when, or where you are, and it must necessarily exist and be perfect, complete, for it is by definition all of that which must necessarily exist, and so it must be perfect or complete. Whatever it is that it is, is "the truth". To deny that it exists is to say "there is no truth", which is a manifest contradiction.
This is to say nothing about the specifics of its nature, or any measurements of it. All measurements are subjective and relative - our understanding of reality, our knowledge, is finite and flawed, and as the finite cannot 'become' infinite (because the infinite is eternal and as such never comes in or out of being), it is necessary that our understanding must always, and for everyone, be finite and flawed.
That's the entire point of collaborative conversation: you're partly wrong, so is the other guy, there is only one "right" and it must, being infinite, necessarily be greater than the both of you, who are finite. So if you want to be "more right" you'd damn well try to find a way to incorporate other people's views coherently into yours. In doing this, you not only ask yourself "can I dumb down my view to match his?", but to double-check if you're really right and already understand better than him, try to see if you can show him how, even though he thinks he disagrees with you, you don't disagree with him: "I see your point of view and how it is right in that limited extent, BUT... this, and that, and the other thing. You see?" and if you can help him follow along from his view, without destroying it, to see how your view is compatible, THEN you can be pretty damn sure you've got a better understanding than him; or had, since he should now have the same understanding as you. (Unless he disagrees on the particulars of this, that, and the other thing, which are then whole new sub-conversations to have).
So in the end, it winds up looking like a game of persuasion and manipulation, but not in an evil deceitful way, because you're trying to convince each other of the truth while hopefully learning at the same time. If you are really more right than they are, it should be simple to show them the missing pieces to add to their world-view (and you should be able to found those missing pieces on universal axioms like the principle of consistency, etc, that they already accept), to bring it up to equal your world-view. If not, and they can show you where your argument is wrong, then maybe your world-view isn't really "more right" than theirs, and then you've got something to learn from their advice, rather than they from yours; or maybe you both need to learn from each other to get the "big picture".

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Mapping community goran 9/27/05 11:52 a.m.

Re: Mapping community Blake37 9/27/05 12:11 p.m.

Re: Mapping community Nick Hoad 9/27/05 1:30 p.m.

Re: Mapping community Me_43 9/27/05 8:23 p.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 9/28/05 12:38 a.m.

Re: Mapping community RyokoTK 9/28/05 3:25 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 9/28/05 5:23 a.m.

Re: Mapping community Forrest of B.org 9/28/05 8:18 a.m.

Re: Mapping community Nick Hoad 9/28/05 12:52 p.m.

Re: Mapping community RyokoTK 9/28/05 5:23 p.m.

Re: Mapping community ellio7t 9/30/05 9:15 a.m.

****To mapping community**** me_43 9/28/05 11:45 p.m.

Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously. *NM* RyokoTK 9/29/05 3:39 a.m.

Re: Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously. Simon/team Sigma 9/29/05 3:50 a.m.

Re: ****To mapping community**** goran 9/29/05 4:02 a.m.

Can't we all just get along? *NM* Bob-B-Q 9/29/05 4:47 a.m.

Re: Can't we all just get along? Simon/team Sigma 9/29/05 5:11 a.m.

Consider the circumstances. RyokoTK 9/29/05 12:38 p.m.

Re: Consider the circumstances. me_43 10/4/05 3:19 a.m.

I'm with Bob-B-Q on this Reiginko 9/29/05 5:33 a.m.

Re: I'm with Bob-B-Q on this me_43 9/29/05 6:38 a.m.

To all of you... Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 7:47 a.m.

Re: To all of you... kyjel 9/29/05 9:11 a.m.

Re: To all of you... Jacke 9/29/05 9:51 a.m.

Re: To all of you... Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 8:06 p.m.

Re: To all of you... goran 9/29/05 10:00 p.m.

Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Tyler 9/30/05 1:35 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:52 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:53 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Tyler 9/30/05 2:57 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:11 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Speaker-To-Animals 10/1/05 7:31 a.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Blake37 10/1/05 9:35 a.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 2:13 p.m.

stop goran 9/29/05 10:44 a.m.

I wouldn't see it as "preaching" MrHen 9/29/05 11:41 a.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 2:40 p.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 8:01 p.m.

Re: stop Bob-B-Q 9/29/05 3:24 p.m.

Re: stop RyokoTK 9/29/05 3:29 p.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 7:49 p.m.

Re: stop goran 9/29/05 9:54 p.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 10:24 p.m.

Re: stop goran 9/30/05 3:10 a.m.

Re: stop RyokoTK 9/30/05 4:07 a.m.

Re: stop goran 9/30/05 3:18 a.m.

FROG BLAST THE VENT CORE!!!!!!! *NM* ukimalefu 9/30/05 4:58 a.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 6:25 a.m.

Steve's house goran 9/30/05 9:10 a.m.

Collaborative Conversation Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 12:37 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:32 p.m.

Unsolicted advice (this time without anecdots) goran 9/30/05 4:39 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 9/30/05 5:10 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation D-M.A. 9/30/05 9:12 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:24 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 1:56 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 12:52 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation D-M.A. 10/1/05 1:39 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation D-M.A. 10/1/05 1:50 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 2:46 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 2:29 a.m.

Another note to self... Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 12:10 p.m.

Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs Absolute Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 1:12 p.m.

Applause! *NM* Blake37 10/3/05 1:42 p.m.

addition: beliefs and maps goran 10/3/05 3:22 p.m.

Re: addition: beliefs and maps D-M.A. 10/3/05 7:04 p.m.

Re: addition: beliefs and maps Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 7:07 p.m.

Re: addition: beliefs and maps goran 10/4/05 12:32 a.m.

MSF Story Hour Jacke 9/30/05 1:38 p.m.

Re: To all of you... me_43 10/1/05 2:37 a.m.

Re: To all of you... RyokoTK 10/1/05 4:00 a.m.

Re: To all of you... me_43 10/1/05 7:27 a.m.

Re: To all of you... Simon/team Sigma 10/1/05 12:17 p.m.

Re: To all of you... Steve Levinson 10/1/05 7:07 p.m.

Re: To all of you... C Lund 10/1/05 11:16 p.m.

Re: An objective opinion? Maybe. Blayne 9/29/05 7:40 a.m.

Re: ****To mapping community**** Adam Ashwell 9/29/05 12:08 p.m.

To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen Steve Levinson 9/30/05 9:08 p.m.

Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen D-M.A. 9/30/05 9:22 p.m.

Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:35 p.m.

Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen goran 10/1/05 12:28 a.m.

Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen me_43 10/1/05 2:45 a.m.

Re: Mapping community D-M.A. 9/29/05 10:42 a.m.

Re: Mapping community me_43 10/5/05 10:01 p.m.

Can't see shit. *omg downloads* Me_43 10/5/05 11:27 p.m.

Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Reiginko 10/6/05 2:08 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Forrest of B.org 10/6/05 6:51 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/6/05 9:51 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Forrest of B.org 10/6/05 2:16 p.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/7/05 2:06 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/7/05 2:54 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Nick Hoad 10/7/05 10:44 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/7/05 11:14 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Nick Hoad 10/7/05 1:54 p.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/8/05 12:54 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/8/05 12:55 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/8/05 1:34 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died RyokoTK 10/7/05 3:12 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/8/05 12:55 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died RyokoTK 10/8/05 3:16 a.m.

Do you really think you can make better maps? RyokoTK 10/6/05 3:34 a.m.

Re: Do you really think you can make better maps? Simon/team Sigma 10/6/05 3:55 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 10/6/05 4:14 a.m.

[end thread] me_43 10/6/05 5:06 a.m.

Re: [end thread] D-M.A. 10/6/05 7:55 a.m.

Re: [end thread] Dave 10/7/05 9:08 p.m.

Re: [end thread] goran 10/8/05 1:32 a.m.

Re: [end thread] goran 10/8/05 2:06 a.m.

Re: [end thread] RyokoTK 10/8/05 3:16 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 10/6/05 4:53 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 10/6/05 11:55 a.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:
: Boss is taking a nap, so here's my say in brief... : The single, infinite, all-encompassing, absolute reality is objective. That : is to say that there is only one, no matter who, when, or where you are, : and it must necessarily exist and be perfect, complete, for it is by : definition all of that which must necessarily exist, and so it must be : perfect or complete. Whatever it is that it is, is "the truth". : To deny that it exists is to say "there is no truth", which is a : manifest contradiction. : This is to say nothing about the specifics of its nature, or any measurements : of it. All measurements are subjective and relative - our understanding of : reality, our knowledge, is finite and flawed, and as the finite cannot : 'become' infinite (because the infinite is eternal and as such never comes : in or out of being), it is necessary that our understanding must always, : and for everyone, be finite and flawed. : That's the entire point of collaborative conversation: you're partly wrong, : so is the other guy, there is only one "right" and it must, : being infinite, necessarily be greater than the both of you, who are : finite. So if you want to be "more right" you'd damn well try to : find a way to incorporate other people's views coherently into yours. In : doing this, you not only ask yourself "can I dumb down my view to : match his?", but to double-check if you're really right and already : understand better than him, try to see if you can show him how, even : though he thinks he disagrees with you, you don't disagree with him: : "I see your point of view and how it is right in that limited extent, : BUT... this, and that, and the other thing. You see?" and if you can : help him follow along from his view, without destroying it, to see how : your view is compatible, THEN you can be pretty damn sure you've got a : better understanding than him; or had, since he should now have the same : understanding as you. (Unless he disagrees on the particulars of this, : that, and the other thing, which are then whole new sub-conversations to : have). : So in the end, it winds up looking like a game of persuasion and : manipulation, but not in an evil deceitful way, because you're trying to : convince each other of the truth while hopefully learning at the same : time. If you are really more right than they are, it should be simple to : show them the missing pieces to add to their world-view (and you should be : able to found those missing pieces on universal axioms like the principle : of consistency, etc, that they already accept), to bring it up to equal : your world-view. If not, and they can show you where your argument is : wrong, then maybe your world-view isn't really "more right" than : theirs, and then you've got something to learn from their advice, rather : than they from yours; or maybe you both need to learn from each other to : get the "big picture".

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Mapping community	goran	9/27/05 11:52 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	Blake37	9/27/05 12:11 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	Nick Hoad	9/27/05 1:30 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	Me_43	9/27/05 8:23 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	9/28/05 12:38 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	RyokoTK	9/28/05 3:25 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	9/28/05 5:23 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	Forrest of B.org	9/28/05 8:18 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	Nick Hoad	9/28/05 12:52 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	RyokoTK	9/28/05 5:23 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	ellio7t	9/30/05 9:15 a.m.
**To mapping community**	me_43	9/28/05 11:45 p.m.
Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously. NM	RyokoTK	9/29/05 3:39 a.m.
Re: Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously.	Simon/team Sigma	9/29/05 3:50 a.m.
Re: **To mapping community**	goran	9/29/05 4:02 a.m.
Can't we all just get along? NM	Bob-B-Q	9/29/05 4:47 a.m.
Re: Can't we all just get along?	Simon/team Sigma	9/29/05 5:11 a.m.
Consider the circumstances.	RyokoTK	9/29/05 12:38 p.m.
Re: Consider the circumstances.	me_43	10/4/05 3:19 a.m.
I'm with Bob-B-Q on this	Reiginko	9/29/05 5:33 a.m.
Re: I'm with Bob-B-Q on this	me_43	9/29/05 6:38 a.m.
To all of you...	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 7:47 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	kyjel	9/29/05 9:11 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	Jacke	9/29/05 9:51 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 8:06 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	goran	9/29/05 10:00 p.m.
Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Tyler	9/30/05 1:35 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 1:52 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 1:53 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Tyler	9/30/05 2:57 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Speaker-To-Animals	10/1/05 7:31 a.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Blake37	10/1/05 9:35 a.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 2:13 p.m.
stop	goran	9/29/05 10:44 a.m.
I wouldn't see it as "preaching"	MrHen	9/29/05 11:41 a.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 2:40 p.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 8:01 p.m.
Re: stop	Bob-B-Q	9/29/05 3:24 p.m.
Re: stop	RyokoTK	9/29/05 3:29 p.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: stop	goran	9/29/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 10:24 p.m.
Re: stop	goran	9/30/05 3:10 a.m.
Re: stop	RyokoTK	9/30/05 4:07 a.m.
Re: stop	goran	9/30/05 3:18 a.m.
FROG BLAST THE VENT CORE!!!!!!! NM	ukimalefu	9/30/05 4:58 a.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 6:25 a.m.
Steve's house	goran	9/30/05 9:10 a.m.
Collaborative Conversation	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 12:37 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 1:32 p.m.
Unsolicted advice (this time without anecdots)	goran	9/30/05 4:39 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	9/30/05 5:10 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	D-M.A.	9/30/05 9:12 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 10:24 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 1:56 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 12:52 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	D-M.A.	10/1/05 1:39 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	D-M.A.	10/1/05 1:50 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 2:46 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 2:29 a.m.
Another note to self...	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 12:10 p.m.
Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs Absolute	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 1:12 p.m.
Applause! NM	Blake37	10/3/05 1:42 p.m.
addition: beliefs and maps	goran	10/3/05 3:22 p.m.
Re: addition: beliefs and maps	D-M.A.	10/3/05 7:04 p.m.
Re: addition: beliefs and maps	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 7:07 p.m.
Re: addition: beliefs and maps	goran	10/4/05 12:32 a.m.
MSF Story Hour	Jacke	9/30/05 1:38 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	me_43	10/1/05 2:37 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	RyokoTK	10/1/05 4:00 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	me_43	10/1/05 7:27 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	Simon/team Sigma	10/1/05 12:17 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	Steve Levinson	10/1/05 7:07 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	C Lund	10/1/05 11:16 p.m.
Re: An objective opinion? Maybe.	Blayne	9/29/05 7:40 a.m.
Re: **To mapping community**	Adam Ashwell	9/29/05 12:08 p.m.
To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen	Steve Levinson	9/30/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen	D-M.A.	9/30/05 9:22 p.m.
Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 10:35 p.m.
Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen	goran	10/1/05 12:28 a.m.
Re: To me_43, G�ran and anyone else who'll listen	me_43	10/1/05 2:45 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	D-M.A.	9/29/05 10:42 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	me_43	10/5/05 10:01 p.m.
Can't see shit. omg downloads	Me_43	10/5/05 11:27 p.m.
Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Reiginko	10/6/05 2:08 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Forrest of B.org	10/6/05 6:51 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/6/05 9:51 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Forrest of B.org	10/6/05 2:16 p.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/7/05 2:06 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/7/05 2:54 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Nick Hoad	10/7/05 10:44 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/7/05 11:14 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Nick Hoad	10/7/05 1:54 p.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/8/05 12:54 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/8/05 12:55 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/8/05 1:34 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	RyokoTK	10/7/05 3:12 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/8/05 12:55 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	RyokoTK	10/8/05 3:16 a.m.
Do you really think you can make better maps?	RyokoTK	10/6/05 3:34 a.m.
Re: Do you really think you can make better maps?	Simon/team Sigma	10/6/05 3:55 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	10/6/05 4:14 a.m.
[end thread]	me_43	10/6/05 5:06 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	D-M.A.	10/6/05 7:55 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	Dave	10/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: [end thread]	goran	10/8/05 1:32 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	goran	10/8/05 2:06 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	RyokoTK	10/8/05 3:16 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	10/6/05 4:53 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	10/6/05 11:55 a.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : Boss is taking a nap, so here's my say in brief... : The single, infinite, all-encompassing, absolute reality is objective. That : is to say that there is only one, no matter who, when, or where you are, : and it must necessarily exist and be perfect, complete, for it is by : definition all of that which must necessarily exist, and so it must be : perfect or complete. Whatever it is that it is, is "the truth". : To deny that it exists is to say "there is no truth", which is a : manifest contradiction. : This is to say nothing about the specifics of its nature, or any measurements : of it. All measurements are subjective and relative - our understanding of : reality, our knowledge, is finite and flawed, and as the finite cannot : 'become' infinite (because the infinite is eternal and as such never comes : in or out of being), it is necessary that our understanding must always, : and for everyone, be finite and flawed. : That's the entire point of collaborative conversation: you're partly wrong, : so is the other guy, there is only one "right" and it must, : being infinite, necessarily be greater than the both of you, who are : finite. So if you want to be "more right" you'd damn well try to : find a way to incorporate other people's views coherently into yours. In : doing this, you not only ask yourself "can I dumb down my view to : match his?", but to double-check if you're really right and already : understand better than him, try to see if you can show him how, even : though he thinks he disagrees with you, you don't disagree with him: : "I see your point of view and how it is right in that limited extent, : BUT... this, and that, and the other thing. You see?" and if you can : help him follow along from his view, without destroying it, to see how : your view is compatible, THEN you can be pretty damn sure you've got a : better understanding than him; or had, since he should now have the same : understanding as you. (Unless he disagrees on the particulars of this, : that, and the other thing, which are then whole new sub-conversations to : have). : So in the end, it winds up looking like a game of persuasion and : manipulation, but not in an evil deceitful way, because you're trying to : convince each other of the truth while hopefully learning at the same : time. If you are really more right than they are, it should be simple to : show them the missing pieces to add to their world-view (and you should be : able to found those missing pieces on universal axioms like the principle : of consistency, etc, that they already accept), to bring it up to equal : your world-view. If not, and they can show you where your argument is : wrong, then maybe your world-view isn't really "more right" than : theirs, and then you've got something to learn from their advice, rather : than they from yours; or maybe you both need to learn from each other to : get the "big picture".
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