Re: help me out...to read this


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Re: help me out...to read this

Posted By: Yossarian Date: 4/6/04 6:13 p.m.
In Response To: Re: help me out...to read this (Forrest of B.org)

: The universe has a tendancy to balance things; balance is good. (I have a
: medium-length formal proof of this, amongst other things, if anyone would
: like to see it).
I would love to see a proof arguing that entropy is something as arbitrarily vague as "good". ;)
: Entropy has always bothered me because it seems a very
: unnatural thing; a one-directional process with no counter-process to
: balance it.
The problem with working on something so philosophically large as "entropy" is that it's hard to label it. From what frame of reference do you define "natural"? Can we truly identify something that does not have a counter process? On the contrary, some could say that entropy is the rule and life is the exception.
I've been trying to find some suitable counter-process for a
: while now, and life seems like a good candidate, though it's not really on
: the same level of processees as entropy, what with the latter being a law
: of thermodynamics.
This comes back to how you define life. I'll agree with your assessment if we're sticking to the strict bilogical definitions of what it is, though I believe you'll have a stronger case if in place of life you substitute systemization. When complete entropy has occured, and there remains no energy in any form, how can there be movement, or time? Does gravity still take affect here?
Or, perhaps the flaw is assuming entropy is something more than a mere concept. Is entropy a real "thing" or simply a description of a lack of seomthing (such as darkness is the lack of light)? In this case, the counter-balance to entropy is everything that is not entropy, these being all forms of energy and associated products/fuel; light, heat, motion, matter, radiation...the concept of it all is so large that it turns itself around or upside down.
Of course, the flaw could be in the premise. The nature of balance is to keep certain things as they are, that is, to maintain the observer's ability to differntiate, not nesecessarily to maintain a universal status quo, that is to say, equilibrium may be required but perfect equilibrium may not.
Take for instance octane, C(8) H(18). Carbon and hydrogen are unequal in both quantity and mass, yet this "balance" serves a real practical purpose. It gets you places in your petrol-burning horseless carriage. So perhaps it is not the fact that there is a balance that is good enough; maybe it's the degree of balance that's the secret.
: But yeah... the benefit of something countering entropy is that SOMETHING has
: to or the balance of the system would be ruined and that would be bad.
Good, bad. Entropy's the guy with the gun pointed at the head of the Universe.

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: I would love to see a proof arguing that entropy is something as arbitrarily : vague as "good". ;) : The problem with working on something so philosophically large as : "entropy" is that it's hard to label it. From what frame of : reference do you define "natural"? Can we truly identify : something that does not have a counter process? On the contrary, some : could say that entropy is the rule and life is the exception. : I've been trying to find some suitable counter-process for a : This comes back to how you define life. I'll agree with your assessment if : we're sticking to the strict bilogical definitions of what it is, though I : believe you'll have a stronger case if in place of life you substitute : systemization. When complete entropy has occured, and there remains no : energy in any form, how can there be movement, or time? Does gravity still : take affect here? : Or, perhaps the flaw is assuming entropy is something more than a mere : concept. Is entropy a real "thing" or simply a description of a : lack of seomthing (such as darkness is the lack of light)? In this case, : the counter-balance to entropy is everything that is not entropy, these : being all forms of energy and associated products/fuel; light, heat, : motion, matter, radiation...the concept of it all is so large that it : turns itself around or upside down. : Of course, the flaw could be in the premise. The nature of balance is to keep : certain things as they are, that is, to maintain the observer's ability to : differntiate, not nesecessarily to maintain a universal status quo, that : is to say, equilibrium may be required but perfect equilibrium may not. : Take for instance octane, C(8) H(18). Carbon and hydrogen are unequal in both : quantity and mass, yet this "balance" serves a real practical : purpose. It gets you places in your petrol-burning horseless carriage. So : perhaps it is not the fact that there is a balance that is good enough; : maybe it's the degree of balance that's the secret. : Good, bad. Entropy's the guy with the gun pointed at the head of the : Universe.

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help me out...to read this	goran	4/4/04 3:04 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Yossarian	4/4/04 6:30 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	ukimalefu	4/4/04 8:33 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	goran	4/5/04 12:01 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Steve Levinson	4/5/04 6:46 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	goran	4/6/04 5:16 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Steve Levinson	4/6/04 6:54 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Johannes Gunnar	4/6/04 7:42 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	goran	4/6/04 9:08 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Steve Levinson	4/6/04 10:21 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Yossarian	4/6/04 11:51 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	goran	4/6/04 2:19 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Steve Levinson	4/6/04 9:41 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	goran	4/6/04 9:14 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Steve Levinson	4/6/04 10:36 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Yossarian	4/6/04 11:40 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Forrest of B.org	4/6/04 5:03 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Yossarian	4/6/04 6:13 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Forrest of B.org	4/7/04 7:04 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Steve Levinson	4/7/04 8:34 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Forrest of B.org	4/7/04 10:41 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Forrest of B.org	4/7/04 10:41 a.m.
Appologies for the double-posts...	Forrest of B.org	4/7/04 10:42 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Steve Levinson	4/7/04 11:36 a.m.
Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Forrest of B.org	4/10/04 12:09 p.m.
Yikes!!! NM	ukimalefu	4/10/04 4:21 p.m.
I'll wait for Cliff's Notes NM	Siphonopho	4/10/04 7:34 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Yossarian	4/10/04 7:51 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Forrest of B.org	4/10/04 10:27 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Yossarian	4/11/04 2:55 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Forrest of B.org	4/12/04 8:13 a.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Yossarian	4/12/04 4:41 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Elliott	4/11/04 5:24 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Yossarian	4/11/04 7:04 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Elliott	4/11/04 10:25 p.m.
Re: Fobo's "Philosophy..." (part 1 rough draft)	Lt Devon	4/10/04 9:55 p.m.
INRTLB :-P NM	ukimalefu	4/11/04 12:56 p.m.
You have a lot of mental energy.	K-chi	4/11/04 1:19 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	goran	4/5/04 12:32 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	ukimalefu	4/5/04 5:10 p.m.
THE MATRIX HAS YOU!	ukimalefu	4/6/04 11:18 a.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Vid Boi	4/6/04 2:04 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Johannes Gunnar	4/6/04 3:14 p.m.
Re: help me out...to read this	Adam Ashwell	4/6/04 4:19 p.m.
Army of Darkness NM	Yossarian	4/6/04 4:30 p.m.
But originally from The Day the Earth Stood Still NM	the Battle Cat	4/7/04 6:37 a.m.
One of the greatest Sci-Fi movies of all time NM	Steve Levinson	4/7/04 8:22 a.m.
Myth II: Soulblighter. The Deceiver. [no message] NM	Andrew Nagy	4/7/04 5:14 p.m.



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	Message: : I would love to see a proof arguing that entropy is something as arbitrarily : vague as "good". ;) : The problem with working on something so philosophically large as : "entropy" is that it's hard to label it. From what frame of : reference do you define "natural"? Can we truly identify : something that does not have a counter process? On the contrary, some : could say that entropy is the rule and life is the exception. : I've been trying to find some suitable counter-process for a : This comes back to how you define life. I'll agree with your assessment if : we're sticking to the strict bilogical definitions of what it is, though I : believe you'll have a stronger case if in place of life you substitute : systemization. When complete entropy has occured, and there remains no : energy in any form, how can there be movement, or time? Does gravity still : take affect here? : Or, perhaps the flaw is assuming entropy is something more than a mere : concept. Is entropy a real "thing" or simply a description of a : lack of seomthing (such as darkness is the lack of light)? In this case, : the counter-balance to entropy is everything that is not entropy, these : being all forms of energy and associated products/fuel; light, heat, : motion, matter, radiation...the concept of it all is so large that it : turns itself around or upside down. : Of course, the flaw could be in the premise. The nature of balance is to keep : certain things as they are, that is, to maintain the observer's ability to : differntiate, not nesecessarily to maintain a universal status quo, that : is to say, equilibrium may be required but perfect equilibrium may not. : Take for instance octane, C(8) H(18). Carbon and hydrogen are unequal in both : quantity and mass, yet this "balance" serves a real practical : purpose. It gets you places in your petrol-burning horseless carriage. So : perhaps it is not the fact that there is a balance that is good enough; : maybe it's the degree of balance that's the secret. : Good, bad. Entropy's the guy with the gun pointed at the head of the : Universe.
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