Re: Infinity's Plot
Posted By: PhiltronDate: 10/4/20 6:20 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Infinity's Plot (Forrest of B.org)

: Thing What Kicks, terminal 0, Durandal says " My teams have activated
: the AI , and I am learning much about the final days of the S'pht, but the
: intelligence is reticent and inscrutable. It expects something, that is
: clear enough, but what is a mystery. Once you are finished here, I will
: transport you to an ancient S'pht citadel where my humans are searching
: for clues."

Well, I guess I was wrong about that, but I don't see anything in the Text to suggest that Thoth is the source of the timeline shift, especially since he never seems capable of these things in the rest of the Marathon series. If anything, it seems more likely that Thoth summons the S'pht'kr and this is what leads to the Pfhor using the trih'xeem which causes the timeline to shift. So once Thoth is awakened then the rest of the timeline is kind of set in stone because we know what he'll do and we know the consequences of it.

: I also think that the timeline continues with the Security Officer in it. His
: body with a version of his consciousness continues on, but another version
: of his consciousness travels back and across timelines to try something
: different.

This is needlessly convoluted just to view the level jumps as diegetic. I mean what's the difference between this and the reverse: the Security Officer continuing on but another version of his consciousness travels across timelines to try something different? What's the difference between THAT and the security officer continuing on in one timeline and then at the end jumps to a different timeline, without any alternate versions being created?

All these views are functionally identical (what's the real difference between the SO and an "alternate" version), except yours exists to arbitrarily chain the character's experience to that of the player's and in doing so creates more questions than it answers.

For example: if the SO jumps timelines when the player does... then why? What's the motivation at those points of time? He doesn't know how the timeline is going to end. He hasn't received any visions of the Failure Levels yet, or ever. If you view the player's experience as being the same as the SO's then if the player never sees a Failure Level then neither does the SO and therefore has no motivation to change timelines.

I think you've already tried to answer this by saying Thoth does it, but this also just leads to more questions than answers. Doesn't Thoth need time to figure out what's happening in the world the way he did in M2, after he first wakes up? Why would he timeline jump the SO immediately on awakening? It doesn't make sense and doesn't fit his character. Why doesn't Thoth jump the timelines in M2 if this is something he's capable of? How is Thoth able to see the future of this timeline when we've never seen him be capable of doing this in M2 or M Infinity? Why does Thoth trust you to fix timelines in which he isn't even awake yet, since he can't guarantee that he'll be awakened in the next timeline, and if he's the source of the time jumps and he never awakens then that timeline would fail permanently?

I could go on, and any answers you provide to the above questions will simply generate more questions trying to fill in the holes. And if we take your other alternate answer, that the SO is remembering the future, this also would create paragraphs of questions with no real answers.

But my point is, interpreting the timeline jumps as diegetic just makes the entire story more convoluted without supplying any real satisfying answer.

The simplest explanation is that the level jumps are non-diegetic: the audience experiences it, but the character does not. The idea that we skip the intervening levels that the SO experiences because Double Aught knows we can intuit what happens is the more logical and straight forward explanation. The SO lives out every timeline until the W'rk is released which either causes him to choose or causes the Jjaro implants to automatically jump him to another timeline.

It's kind of like the dream levels. We aren't meant to take them literally or diegetically. The SO isn't literally traveling through a Jjaro/S'pht facility while being attacked by shadowed S'pht'kr, S'pht, and Enforcers and balancing on beams above lava. This is a non-literal abstraction of what the SO experiences, translated to the player through the interface of a 2.5D shooter.

There's one more piece of evidence that we shouldn't view the levels as diegetic, which I alluded to earlier: the Failure Levels are optional. If you view the level jumps as diegetic, the player's experience is the same as the SO's, then it means that either 1) SO doesn't see the Failures timelines and therefore has no motivation to actually switch timelines, 2) or he does see the Failure timelines, but AFTER he has decided to jump. Viewing things diegetically only convolutes the story and creates more questions than it answer.

Viewing it non-diegetically provides a simple explanation: the SO already lives out a timeline and sees its failure before jumping. We, the player jump to a different timeline before the SO and we have the OPTION of seeing the Failure of that timeline which the SO already has experienced. The story has already happened by the time we've chosen to sit down and play the game, we're just reviewing what the SO already experienced.

: I also interpret this as the way that the Security Officer makes sense of his
: timeline-jumping. Even back in the M1 prologue, we see signs of his
: strange feelings of deja vu. I think that that is his perception of his
: timeline-jumping: a version of him in the past suddenly has memories of an
: alternate future and because of those memories acts differently, but the
: normal human mind doesn't know how to easily integrate the sudden
: acquisition of memories from a future that won't happen now, so they seem
: like deja vu, visions, or half-remembered dreams.

Again I could have paragraphs of questions with no real answers here, but I'll just say this. If the SO has memories of alternate futures, then they did happen and he already did live through them. So, this view would be identical to what I said except viewed in a more convoluted way in order to justify a diegetic interpretation of the level jumps.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts


Infinity's PlotTim "Mordeir" Branin 10/2/20 7:13 p.m.
     Re: Infinity's Plotpfhore 10/2/20 10:50 p.m.
     Re: Infinity's PlotGodot 10/3/20 4:27 a.m.
     Re: Infinity's PlotDocument 10/3/20 1:05 p.m.
           Re: Infinity's PlotDocument 10/3/20 1:13 p.m.
                 Re: Infinity's PlotDurandal_1707 10/4/20 2:40 p.m.
     Re: Infinity's PlotPhiltron 10/3/20 7:12 p.m.
           Re: Infinity's PlotForrest of B.org 10/3/20 7:16 p.m.
                 Re: Infinity's PlotPhiltron 10/3/20 8:13 p.m.
                       Re: Infinity's PlotForrest of B.org 10/3/20 9:01 p.m.
                             Re: Infinity's PlotPhiltron 10/4/20 6:20 a.m.
                                   Re: Infinity's PlotPhiltron 10/4/20 6:30 a.m.
                                         Re: Infinity's PlotDurandal_1707 10/4/20 2:39 p.m.
                                               Re: Infinity's PlotGeneral-RADIX 10/4/20 3:33 p.m.
                                                     Re: Infinity's PlotPhiltron 10/4/20 6:40 p.m.
                                                     Re: Infinity's PlotDurandal_1707 10/4/20 6:48 p.m.
                                                           Re: Infinity's PlotGeneral-RADIX 10/5/20 9:46 a.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts



Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:

If you'd like to include a link to another page with your message,
please provide both the URL address and the title of the page:

Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:

If necessary, enter your password below:




Problems? Suggestions? Comments? Email maintainer@bungie.org

Marathon's Story Forum is maintained with WebBBS 5.12.