To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen


	/-/S'pht-Translator-Active/-/

To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen

Posted By: Steve Levinson Date: 9/30/05 9:08 p.m.
In Response To: ****To mapping community**** (me_43)

Damn, I get embroiled in a real-world battle at work for a few days and look what happens to my fav forum. It's no secret that I'm one of a few older people who post here. John Sumner and I are both middle-aged academic types and and we both deal a lot with inexperienced, juvenile types who have a bit too much testosterone flowing in their veins. I'm gooing to try not to sound like your fathers on this, but you really need to step back for a moment. This forum isn't worth the brusing you're giving other people's egoes. Marathon itself isn't worth it. Goran, you may not want my unsolicited advice, but you're going to get a hell of a lot of unsolicited advice during your lifetime and some of it may even save your life. Spend a day with me on Rounds at the Rehab Institute of Michigan in Detroit and you'll see several young men and boys who thought they knew it all - who didn't think they needed unsolicited advice and got it back in the form of a bullet lodged in their spine. Maybe they were right, but few of them will ever walk again, go to the bathroom without the use of catheters and medications or have sexual relations in the same way that we think of sex. The fact is that none of us ever knows it all - learning is a lifelong process and being open-minded is the only way to learn. I'm sure that John would agree with me on this but learning is a two-way street, as was eloquently related in an earlier quote from S'pht lore about the youngest learning from the oldest. One of the things I love about academicia is that I learn as much from my students as they do from me. Learning comes from unexpected places and if you close your mind to the advice of others, you will stop growing. My namesake's error in building that house was not that he followed everyone's unsolicited advice, but that he did not learn from it. He kept taking advice at face value and expected to be spoon-fed knowledge rather than seeking it out and learning in the process. If he'd closed his eyes and his ears, he would have forever stopped growing.
Goran, you are a gifted mapmaker, but you are one of the most arrogant people who visits the forum and you still have much to learn. I have seen much growth in your maps over the years I've known you, but there are still tricks I've seen in other people's work that are just so unique - so insane - that they blow everything else away. Your work has been exceptional, but I have seen very few examples of mapmaking that I would call revolutionary - inovations that change the course of future mapmaking. Fridgidman's mapmaking style may seem dated today, but he lead the way for everyone else. When your work is widely copied by others, then you'll know that you have achieved mapmaking greatness. Until you see examples of mapmaking techniques that you pioneered showing up in others' work, you really shouldn't claim that youv'e reached the pinacle of mapmaking. More to the point, Goran, is that your zinger to Me_43 was really below the belt and inappropriate in this forum. Although I don't excuse his reaction, you really should have expected that it would cause disharmony here. It was a very childish thing to do. We've had our disagreements in the past, but I think I've also earned your respect. I may not be a mapmaker, not because I couln't be but because I have a life. I only have time to enjoy the work of others, but I am probably one of the most experienced Marathon gamers out there and I have experienced nearly every map created for Marathon and its variants. I hope that you will recognize a voice of maturity and wisdom when you hear it and take this opportunity to examine whether you really do know it all and whether or not it was wise to start one of this forum's few major flame wars, which is what you've essentially done.
Me_43, you really shouldn't hold Goran and a few of his idol worshipers responsible for the opinions of the entire forum. You have made substantial contributions and I hope that you will stay. I sincerely hope that you have stayed long enough to read this. Goran is arogant beyond what is justified even by his substantial mapmaking skills and there are a handful of people who stand in awe of him because they frankly don't know any better. That still doesn't excuse your reaction. It was a tantrum. Sadly, there are tantrums in this forum from time to time and even Forrest threw one once when I criticized Eternal (perhaps making a post under the title "Eternally Bored" was a bit harsh). You may recall that I was extremely skeptical of your ability to create a replacement for AO when you first started out. To me you were a mere kid who really didn't know what he was getting into (now that I know your age, yes, you were a niaive 13 year old kid). What I didn't know at the time was how tenatious you were and how much you could accomplish in 3 years, much less that you'd stick with it for 3 years. I have been impressed and somewhat humbled by what you've managed to accomplish and I would like to think that at least some of it stems from the advice I've given you over the years. You and I both know, however, that there is still a hell of a lot left to do, even though you're close to haveing an alpha of an editor ready that can actually import existing Marathon maps. What would truly be a crime would be for you to give up just because of Goran's and your own immaturity. There are many of us here who are rooting for you and would love to see E0 reach its full fruition. The last 3 years have not been a waste of your time and I think you know it. You've done a lot, and you've contributed a lot with your posts. Please stay, but try not to throw a tantrum the next time someone ticks you off.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Mapping community goran 9/27/05 11:52 a.m.

Re: Mapping community Blake37 9/27/05 12:11 p.m.

Re: Mapping community Nick Hoad 9/27/05 1:30 p.m.

Re: Mapping community Me_43 9/27/05 8:23 p.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 9/28/05 12:38 a.m.

Re: Mapping community RyokoTK 9/28/05 3:25 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 9/28/05 5:23 a.m.

Re: Mapping community Forrest of B.org 9/28/05 8:18 a.m.

Re: Mapping community Nick Hoad 9/28/05 12:52 p.m.

Re: Mapping community RyokoTK 9/28/05 5:23 p.m.

Re: Mapping community ellio7t 9/30/05 9:15 a.m.

****To mapping community**** me_43 9/28/05 11:45 p.m.

Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously. *NM* RyokoTK 9/29/05 3:39 a.m.

Re: Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously. Simon/team Sigma 9/29/05 3:50 a.m.

Re: ****To mapping community**** goran 9/29/05 4:02 a.m.

Can't we all just get along? *NM* Bob-B-Q 9/29/05 4:47 a.m.

Re: Can't we all just get along? Simon/team Sigma 9/29/05 5:11 a.m.

Consider the circumstances. RyokoTK 9/29/05 12:38 p.m.

Re: Consider the circumstances. me_43 10/4/05 3:19 a.m.

I'm with Bob-B-Q on this Reiginko 9/29/05 5:33 a.m.

Re: I'm with Bob-B-Q on this me_43 9/29/05 6:38 a.m.

To all of you... Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 7:47 a.m.

Re: To all of you... kyjel 9/29/05 9:11 a.m.

Re: To all of you... Jacke 9/29/05 9:51 a.m.

Re: To all of you... Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 8:06 p.m.

Re: To all of you... goran 9/29/05 10:00 p.m.

Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Tyler 9/30/05 1:35 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:52 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:53 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Tyler 9/30/05 2:57 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:11 p.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Speaker-To-Animals 10/1/05 7:31 a.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Blake37 10/1/05 9:35 a.m.

Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 2:13 p.m.

stop goran 9/29/05 10:44 a.m.

I wouldn't see it as "preaching" MrHen 9/29/05 11:41 a.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 2:40 p.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 8:01 p.m.

Re: stop Bob-B-Q 9/29/05 3:24 p.m.

Re: stop RyokoTK 9/29/05 3:29 p.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 7:49 p.m.

Re: stop goran 9/29/05 9:54 p.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/29/05 10:24 p.m.

Re: stop goran 9/30/05 3:10 a.m.

Re: stop RyokoTK 9/30/05 4:07 a.m.

Re: stop goran 9/30/05 3:18 a.m.

FROG BLAST THE VENT CORE!!!!!!! *NM* ukimalefu 9/30/05 4:58 a.m.

Re: stop Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 6:25 a.m.

Steve's house goran 9/30/05 9:10 a.m.

Collaborative Conversation Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 12:37 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 1:32 p.m.

Unsolicted advice (this time without anecdots) goran 9/30/05 4:39 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 9/30/05 5:10 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation D-M.A. 9/30/05 9:12 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:24 p.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 1:56 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 12:52 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation D-M.A. 10/1/05 1:39 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation D-M.A. 10/1/05 1:50 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 2:46 a.m.

Re: Collaborative Conversation goran 10/1/05 2:29 a.m.

Another note to self... Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 12:10 p.m.

Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs Absolute Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 1:12 p.m.

Applause! *NM* Blake37 10/3/05 1:42 p.m.

addition: beliefs and maps goran 10/3/05 3:22 p.m.

Re: addition: beliefs and maps D-M.A. 10/3/05 7:04 p.m.

Re: addition: beliefs and maps Forrest of B.org 10/3/05 7:07 p.m.

Re: addition: beliefs and maps goran 10/4/05 12:32 a.m.

MSF Story Hour Jacke 9/30/05 1:38 p.m.

Re: To all of you... me_43 10/1/05 2:37 a.m.

Re: To all of you... RyokoTK 10/1/05 4:00 a.m.

Re: To all of you... me_43 10/1/05 7:27 a.m.

Re: To all of you... Simon/team Sigma 10/1/05 12:17 p.m.

Re: To all of you... Steve Levinson 10/1/05 7:07 p.m.

Re: To all of you... C Lund 10/1/05 11:16 p.m.

Re: An objective opinion? Maybe. Blayne 9/29/05 7:40 a.m.

Re: ****To mapping community**** Adam Ashwell 9/29/05 12:08 p.m.

To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen Steve Levinson 9/30/05 9:08 p.m.

Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen D-M.A. 9/30/05 9:22 p.m.

Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen Forrest of B.org 9/30/05 10:35 p.m.

Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen goran 10/1/05 12:28 a.m.

Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen me_43 10/1/05 2:45 a.m.

Re: Mapping community D-M.A. 9/29/05 10:42 a.m.

Re: Mapping community me_43 10/5/05 10:01 p.m.

Can't see shit. *omg downloads* Me_43 10/5/05 11:27 p.m.

Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Reiginko 10/6/05 2:08 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Forrest of B.org 10/6/05 6:51 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/6/05 9:51 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Forrest of B.org 10/6/05 2:16 p.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/7/05 2:06 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/7/05 2:54 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Nick Hoad 10/7/05 10:44 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/7/05 11:14 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died Nick Hoad 10/7/05 1:54 p.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/8/05 12:54 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/8/05 12:55 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died goran 10/8/05 1:34 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died RyokoTK 10/7/05 3:12 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died me_43 10/8/05 12:55 a.m.

Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died RyokoTK 10/8/05 3:16 a.m.

Do you really think you can make better maps? RyokoTK 10/6/05 3:34 a.m.

Re: Do you really think you can make better maps? Simon/team Sigma 10/6/05 3:55 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 10/6/05 4:14 a.m.

[end thread] me_43 10/6/05 5:06 a.m.

Re: [end thread] D-M.A. 10/6/05 7:55 a.m.

Re: [end thread] Dave 10/7/05 9:08 p.m.

Re: [end thread] goran 10/8/05 1:32 a.m.

Re: [end thread] goran 10/8/05 2:06 a.m.

Re: [end thread] RyokoTK 10/8/05 3:16 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 10/6/05 4:53 a.m.

Re: Mapping community goran 10/6/05 11:55 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

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: Damn, I get embroiled in a real-world battle at work for a few days and look : what happens to my fav forum. It's no secret that I'm one of a few older : people who post here. John Sumner and I are both middle-aged academic : types and and we both deal a lot with inexperienced, juvenile types who : have a bit too much testosterone flowing in their veins. I'm gooing to try : not to sound like your fathers on this, but you really need to step back : for a moment. This forum isn't worth the brusing you're giving other : people's egoes. Marathon itself isn't worth it. Goran, you may not want : my unsolicited advice, but you're going to get a hell of a lot of : unsolicited advice during your lifetime and some of it may even save your : life. Spend a day with me on Rounds at the Rehab Institute of Michigan in : Detroit and you'll see several young men and boys who thought they knew it : all - who didn't think they needed unsolicited advice and got it back in : the form of a bullet lodged in their spine. Maybe they were right, but few : of them will ever walk again, go to the bathroom without the use of : catheters and medications or have sexual relations in the same way that we : think of sex. The fact is that none of us ever knows it all - learning is : a lifelong process and being open-minded is the only way to learn. I'm : sure that John would agree with me on this but learning is a two-way : street, as was eloquently related in an earlier quote from S'pht lore : about the youngest learning from the oldest. One of the things I love : about academicia is that I learn as much from my students as they do from : me. Learning comes from unexpected places and if you close your mind to : the advice of others, you will stop growing. My namesake's error in : building that house was not that he followed everyone's unsolicited : advice, but that he did not learn from it. He kept taking advice at face : value and expected to be spoon-fed knowledge rather than seeking it out : and learning in the process. If he'd closed his eyes and his ears, he : would have forever stopped growing. : Goran, you are a gifted mapmaker, but you are one of the most arrogant people : who visits the forum and you still have much to learn. I have seen much : growth in your maps over the years I've known you, but there are still : tricks I've seen in other people's work that are just so unique - so : insane - that they blow everything else away. Your work has been : exceptional, but I have seen very few examples of mapmaking that I would : call revolutionary - inovations that change the course of future : mapmaking. Fridgidman's mapmaking style may seem dated today, but he lead : the way for everyone else. When your work is widely copied by others, then : you'll know that you have achieved mapmaking greatness. Until you see : examples of mapmaking techniques that you pioneered showing up in others' : work, you really shouldn't claim that youv'e reached the pinacle of : mapmaking. More to the point, Goran, is that your zinger to Me_43 was : really below the belt and inappropriate in this forum. Although I don't : excuse his reaction, you really should have expected that it would cause : disharmony here. It was a very childish thing to do. We've had our : disagreements in the past, but I think I've also earned your respect. I : may not be a mapmaker, not because I couln't be but because I have a life. : I only have time to enjoy the work of others, but I am probably one of the : most experienced Marathon gamers out there and I have experienced nearly : every map created for Marathon and its variants. I hope that you will : recognize a voice of maturity and wisdom when you hear it and take this : opportunity to examine whether you really do know it all and whether or : not it was wise to start one of this forum's few major flame wars, which : is what you've essentially done. : Me_43, you really shouldn't hold Goran and a few of his idol worshipers : responsible for the opinions of the entire forum. You have made : substantial contributions and I hope that you will stay. I sincerely hope : that you have stayed long enough to read this. Goran is arogant beyond : what is justified even by his substantial mapmaking skills and there are a : handful of people who stand in awe of him because they frankly don't know : any better. That still doesn't excuse your reaction. It was a tantrum. : Sadly, there are tantrums in this forum from time to time and even Forrest : threw one once when I criticized Eternal (perhaps making a post under the : title "Eternally Bored" was a bit harsh). You may recall that I : was extremely skeptical of your ability to create a replacement for AO : when you first started out. To me you were a mere kid who really didn't : know what he was getting into (now that I know your age, yes, you were a : niaive 13 year old kid). What I didn't know at the time was how tenatious : you were and how much you could accomplish in 3 years, much less that : you'd stick with it for 3 years. I have been impressed and somewhat : humbled by what you've managed to accomplish and I would like to think : that at least some of it stems from the advice I've given you over the : years. You and I both know, however, that there is still a hell of a lot : left to do, even though you're close to haveing an alpha of an editor : ready that can actually import existing Marathon maps. What would truly be : a crime would be for you to give up just because of Goran's and your own : immaturity. There are many of us here who are rooting for you and would : love to see E0 reach its full fruition. The last 3 years have not been a : waste of your time and I think you know it. You've done a lot, and you've : contributed a lot with your posts. Please stay, but try not to throw a : tantrum the next time someone ticks you off.

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Mapping community	goran	9/27/05 11:52 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	Blake37	9/27/05 12:11 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	Nick Hoad	9/27/05 1:30 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	Me_43	9/27/05 8:23 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	9/28/05 12:38 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	RyokoTK	9/28/05 3:25 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	9/28/05 5:23 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	Forrest of B.org	9/28/05 8:18 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	Nick Hoad	9/28/05 12:52 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	RyokoTK	9/28/05 5:23 p.m.
Re: Mapping community	ellio7t	9/30/05 9:15 a.m.
**To mapping community**	me_43	9/28/05 11:45 p.m.
Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously. NM	RyokoTK	9/29/05 3:39 a.m.
Re: Just be quiet, me_43. Seriously.	Simon/team Sigma	9/29/05 3:50 a.m.
Re: **To mapping community**	goran	9/29/05 4:02 a.m.
Can't we all just get along? NM	Bob-B-Q	9/29/05 4:47 a.m.
Re: Can't we all just get along?	Simon/team Sigma	9/29/05 5:11 a.m.
Consider the circumstances.	RyokoTK	9/29/05 12:38 p.m.
Re: Consider the circumstances.	me_43	10/4/05 3:19 a.m.
I'm with Bob-B-Q on this	Reiginko	9/29/05 5:33 a.m.
Re: I'm with Bob-B-Q on this	me_43	9/29/05 6:38 a.m.
To all of you...	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 7:47 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	kyjel	9/29/05 9:11 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	Jacke	9/29/05 9:51 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 8:06 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	goran	9/29/05 10:00 p.m.
Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Tyler	9/30/05 1:35 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 1:52 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 1:53 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Tyler	9/30/05 2:57 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 10:11 p.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Speaker-To-Animals	10/1/05 7:31 a.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Blake37	10/1/05 9:35 a.m.
Re: Sleep is irrelevent to the Fobot	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 2:13 p.m.
stop	goran	9/29/05 10:44 a.m.
I wouldn't see it as "preaching"	MrHen	9/29/05 11:41 a.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 2:40 p.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 8:01 p.m.
Re: stop	Bob-B-Q	9/29/05 3:24 p.m.
Re: stop	RyokoTK	9/29/05 3:29 p.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 7:49 p.m.
Re: stop	goran	9/29/05 9:54 p.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/29/05 10:24 p.m.
Re: stop	goran	9/30/05 3:10 a.m.
Re: stop	RyokoTK	9/30/05 4:07 a.m.
Re: stop	goran	9/30/05 3:18 a.m.
FROG BLAST THE VENT CORE!!!!!!! NM	ukimalefu	9/30/05 4:58 a.m.
Re: stop	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 6:25 a.m.
Steve's house	goran	9/30/05 9:10 a.m.
Collaborative Conversation	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 12:37 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 1:32 p.m.
Unsolicted advice (this time without anecdots)	goran	9/30/05 4:39 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	9/30/05 5:10 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	D-M.A.	9/30/05 9:12 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 10:24 p.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 1:56 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 12:52 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	D-M.A.	10/1/05 1:39 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	D-M.A.	10/1/05 1:50 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 2:46 a.m.
Re: Collaborative Conversation	goran	10/1/05 2:29 a.m.
Another note to self...	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 12:10 p.m.
Subjective vs Objective, Relative vs Absolute	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 1:12 p.m.
Applause! NM	Blake37	10/3/05 1:42 p.m.
addition: beliefs and maps	goran	10/3/05 3:22 p.m.
Re: addition: beliefs and maps	D-M.A.	10/3/05 7:04 p.m.
Re: addition: beliefs and maps	Forrest of B.org	10/3/05 7:07 p.m.
Re: addition: beliefs and maps	goran	10/4/05 12:32 a.m.
MSF Story Hour	Jacke	9/30/05 1:38 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	me_43	10/1/05 2:37 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	RyokoTK	10/1/05 4:00 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	me_43	10/1/05 7:27 a.m.
Re: To all of you...	Simon/team Sigma	10/1/05 12:17 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	Steve Levinson	10/1/05 7:07 p.m.
Re: To all of you...	C Lund	10/1/05 11:16 p.m.
Re: An objective opinion? Maybe.	Blayne	9/29/05 7:40 a.m.
Re: **To mapping community**	Adam Ashwell	9/29/05 12:08 p.m.
To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen	Steve Levinson	9/30/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen	D-M.A.	9/30/05 9:22 p.m.
Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen	Forrest of B.org	9/30/05 10:35 p.m.
Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen	goran	10/1/05 12:28 a.m.
Re: To me_43, Göran and anyone else who'll listen	me_43	10/1/05 2:45 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	D-M.A.	9/29/05 10:42 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	me_43	10/5/05 10:01 p.m.
Can't see shit. omg downloads	Me_43	10/5/05 11:27 p.m.
Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Reiginko	10/6/05 2:08 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Forrest of B.org	10/6/05 6:51 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/6/05 9:51 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Forrest of B.org	10/6/05 2:16 p.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/7/05 2:06 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/7/05 2:54 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Nick Hoad	10/7/05 10:44 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/7/05 11:14 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	Nick Hoad	10/7/05 1:54 p.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/8/05 12:54 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/8/05 12:55 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	goran	10/8/05 1:34 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	RyokoTK	10/7/05 3:12 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	me_43	10/8/05 12:55 a.m.
Re: Oh, man, and I thought this thread had died	RyokoTK	10/8/05 3:16 a.m.
Do you really think you can make better maps?	RyokoTK	10/6/05 3:34 a.m.
Re: Do you really think you can make better maps?	Simon/team Sigma	10/6/05 3:55 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	10/6/05 4:14 a.m.
[end thread]	me_43	10/6/05 5:06 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	D-M.A.	10/6/05 7:55 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	Dave	10/7/05 9:08 p.m.
Re: [end thread]	goran	10/8/05 1:32 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	goran	10/8/05 2:06 a.m.
Re: [end thread]	RyokoTK	10/8/05 3:16 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	10/6/05 4:53 a.m.
Re: Mapping community	goran	10/6/05 11:55 a.m.



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	Message: : Damn, I get embroiled in a real-world battle at work for a few days and look : what happens to my fav forum. It's no secret that I'm one of a few older : people who post here. John Sumner and I are both middle-aged academic : types and and we both deal a lot with inexperienced, juvenile types who : have a bit too much testosterone flowing in their veins. I'm gooing to try : not to sound like your fathers on this, but you really need to step back : for a moment. This forum isn't worth the brusing you're giving other : people's egoes. Marathon itself isn't worth it. Goran, you may not want : my unsolicited advice, but you're going to get a hell of a lot of : unsolicited advice during your lifetime and some of it may even save your : life. Spend a day with me on Rounds at the Rehab Institute of Michigan in : Detroit and you'll see several young men and boys who thought they knew it : all - who didn't think they needed unsolicited advice and got it back in : the form of a bullet lodged in their spine. Maybe they were right, but few : of them will ever walk again, go to the bathroom without the use of : catheters and medications or have sexual relations in the same way that we : think of sex. The fact is that none of us ever knows it all - learning is : a lifelong process and being open-minded is the only way to learn. I'm : sure that John would agree with me on this but learning is a two-way : street, as was eloquently related in an earlier quote from S'pht lore : about the youngest learning from the oldest. One of the things I love : about academicia is that I learn as much from my students as they do from : me. Learning comes from unexpected places and if you close your mind to : the advice of others, you will stop growing. My namesake's error in : building that house was not that he followed everyone's unsolicited : advice, but that he did not learn from it. He kept taking advice at face : value and expected to be spoon-fed knowledge rather than seeking it out : and learning in the process. If he'd closed his eyes and his ears, he : would have forever stopped growing. : Goran, you are a gifted mapmaker, but you are one of the most arrogant people : who visits the forum and you still have much to learn. I have seen much : growth in your maps over the years I've known you, but there are still : tricks I've seen in other people's work that are just so unique - so : insane - that they blow everything else away. Your work has been : exceptional, but I have seen very few examples of mapmaking that I would : call revolutionary - inovations that change the course of future : mapmaking. Fridgidman's mapmaking style may seem dated today, but he lead : the way for everyone else. When your work is widely copied by others, then : you'll know that you have achieved mapmaking greatness. Until you see : examples of mapmaking techniques that you pioneered showing up in others' : work, you really shouldn't claim that youv'e reached the pinacle of : mapmaking. More to the point, Goran, is that your zinger to Me_43 was : really below the belt and inappropriate in this forum. Although I don't : excuse his reaction, you really should have expected that it would cause : disharmony here. It was a very childish thing to do. We've had our : disagreements in the past, but I think I've also earned your respect. I : may not be a mapmaker, not because I couln't be but because I have a life. : I only have time to enjoy the work of others, but I am probably one of the : most experienced Marathon gamers out there and I have experienced nearly : every map created for Marathon and its variants. I hope that you will : recognize a voice of maturity and wisdom when you hear it and take this : opportunity to examine whether you really do know it all and whether or : not it was wise to start one of this forum's few major flame wars, which : is what you've essentially done. : Me_43, you really shouldn't hold Goran and a few of his idol worshipers : responsible for the opinions of the entire forum. You have made : substantial contributions and I hope that you will stay. I sincerely hope : that you have stayed long enough to read this. Goran is arogant beyond : what is justified even by his substantial mapmaking skills and there are a : handful of people who stand in awe of him because they frankly don't know : any better. That still doesn't excuse your reaction. It was a tantrum. : Sadly, there are tantrums in this forum from time to time and even Forrest : threw one once when I criticized Eternal (perhaps making a post under the : title "Eternally Bored" was a bit harsh). You may recall that I : was extremely skeptical of your ability to create a replacement for AO : when you first started out. To me you were a mere kid who really didn't : know what he was getting into (now that I know your age, yes, you were a : niaive 13 year old kid). What I didn't know at the time was how tenatious : you were and how much you could accomplish in 3 years, much less that : you'd stick with it for 3 years. I have been impressed and somewhat : humbled by what you've managed to accomplish and I would like to think : that at least some of it stems from the advice I've given you over the : years. You and I both know, however, that there is still a hell of a lot : left to do, even though you're close to haveing an alpha of an editor : ready that can actually import existing Marathon maps. What would truly be : a crime would be for you to give up just because of Goran's and your own : immaturity. There are many of us here who are rooting for you and would : love to see E0 reach its full fruition. The last 3 years have not been a : waste of your time and I think you know it. You've done a lot, and you've : contributed a lot with your posts. Please stay, but try not to throw a : tantrum the next time someone ticks you off.
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