Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?


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Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?

Posted By: Steve Levinson Date: 5/17/04 5:51 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea? (Cheerful)

: Thanks for the insight/feedback.
Sorry I didn't have a chance to weigh in on this sooner, but I was away.
: As far as I remember the exact mechanices of the Pfhor's downfall were never
: touched on in the trilogy proper. I haven't played Rubicon yet, so I can't
: comment on that.
Yoss was definitely remembering Rubicon. Speaking of which, what are you waiting for! What we do know of the end of the Pfhor empire comes from the M2 final screen, but we still are uncertain as to whether that screen occurred after the events of Infinity or if it was based on an M2 timeline in which the W'rkncacnter was never released, in which case the downfall of the Pfhor Empire is far from certain. I tend to believe that the M2 final screen came after the events of Infinity, as I think I stated in the in the Rubicon Volunteers series.
According to the M2 final screen:

It was ten thousand years before fate brought Durandal once again into contact with man. The Pfhor were but a dim memory then, known only to a few historians and students of Earth's second colonial period. The S'pht had been nearly forgotten as well, and no man had seen a living specimen of their race since the sacking of the Pfhor system by the combined fleets of Earth and the S'pht'Kr in 2881 AD.

From this we know that the Pfhor ultimately were marginalized to the point that we never encountered them in the distant future and were likely extinct. Why the S'pht had not been seen since the human-Pfhor war is another subject of debate entirely, and there are definitely a number of possibilities there. It is also clear that the human-Pfhor war was not just a human-Pfhor war - the S'pht were ultimately involved.
: Still, the fact that the Pfhor could follow individual interests, such as the
: aforementioned F'lickta or Nar, suggests they have a fair capability for
: individual thinking. Perhaps the lower ranks had more opportunity for
: this. They were numerous and unimportant enough that they were not
: monitored as closely.
I tend to agree with you here. Although an hierarchic organizational structure was likely hard-wired into the species, they clearly were capable of independent thought. In fact, it could be argued that no species could develop a technologically advanced society without at least some degree of independent thought.
: This does make more sense. However I'm imagining the HC's destruction as
: having a more apocalyptic effect: Pfhor going insane, committing mass
: suicide etc. Still, given the size of their empire there would be quite a
: lot of them. That said, the survivors on the Pfhor homeworld would have
: been pushed onto the planet the humans set aside for them in my concept
: (Pfhor Secundus?). Others would become petty warlords or pirates. Also,
: quite a lot would probably be massacred by their slaves.
I think the difference between the HC and the queen was already resolved later in this thread, but I strongly disagree with the premise that the Pfhor would be incapable of survival without the queen. If that were the case, the Pfhor would have never made it this far - they would be extinct. If you destroy the queen bee in a bee hive, the hive creates another. I think that the Pfhor more than likely have a mechansim for replacing the queen and that the species very likely has the potential for isolated groups to rebuild independently - otherwise they would have never survived their own development.
Another intriguiging possibility is that the Pfhor did indeed place all their eggs in one basket, literally. In terms of survival, one would never want to restrict procreation to a single location, but the Pfhor High Council (yes, there is a high council - not just a queen), being as paranoid about total control as it was, might have made the decision long ago to concentrate all Pfhor procreation or at least procreation of the highest castes in a single location - the HC. This way they could exert total control on the Empire at the expense of risking genocide from a single attack. In that case, the sacking of the Pfhor homeworld might have had a more significant effect than that of simply destroying the leadership - it might have destroyed the capability to create new leaders (enforcers?), leaving the Pfhor Empire without the capability to regain a sense of direction, or it might have eliminated reproductive capabilities altogether.
Also from the M2 Final Screen:

Despite having lost Leela, the Pfhor learned much from Tycho during the seventeen years before he was destroyed by Durandal in the Lh'owon system. All late-model Pfhor personality constructs were based on sixty-four billion exobyte images of Tycho's core, taken during the years he was on the Pfhor homeworld between 2795 and 2801 AD. Though never as intelligent or useful as one of the Marathon's original three AIs, these machines helped the Pfhor delay their inevitable defeat by the S'pht for over fifty years. Many of these crippled clones of Tycho still exist today on old Pfhor colony worlds.

Now this is equally interesting. Once again, it was not just a human-Pfhor war. Clearly, it was the S'pht, not humanity, that defeated the Pfhor. Although we might not have taken to genocide, we have no idea what the S'pht might have done. They might well have had no qualms about eliminating their former masters. We also know that Tycho clones still exist on Pfhor colony worlds some 10k or more years after the events of M2. Now a number of scenario and story writers have interpreted this as meaning that remnants of the Pfhor Empire persisted even after its defeat, but there is clearly no indication of this here. Tycho lived on, but who knows about the Pfhor?

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: Sorry I didn't have a chance to weigh in on this sooner, but I was away. : Yoss was definitely remembering Rubicon. Speaking of which, what are you : waiting for! What we do know of the end of the Pfhor empire comes from : the M2 final screen, but we still are uncertain as to whether that screen : occurred after the events of Infinity or if it was based on an M2 timeline : in which the W'rkncacnter was never released, in which case the downfall : of the Pfhor Empire is far from certain. I tend to believe that the M2 : final screen came after the events of Infinity, as I think I stated in the : in the Rubicon Volunteers series. : According to the M2 final screen: : It was ten thousand years before fate brought Durandal once again into : contact with man. The Pfhor were but a dim memory then, known only to a : few historians and students of Earth's second colonial period. The S'pht : had been nearly forgotten as well, and no man had seen a living specimen : of their race since the sacking of the Pfhor system by the combined fleets : of Earth and the S'pht'Kr in 2881 AD. : : From this we know that the Pfhor ultimately were marginalized to the point : that we never encountered them in the distant future and were likely : extinct. Why the S'pht had not been seen since the human-Pfhor war is : another subject of debate entirely, and there are definitely a number of : possibilities there. It is also clear that the human-Pfhor war was not : just a human-Pfhor war - the S'pht were ultimately involved. : I tend to agree with you here. Although an hierarchic organizational : structure was likely hard-wired into the species, they clearly were : capable of independent thought. In fact, it could be argued that no : species could develop a technologically advanced society without at least : some degree of independent thought. : I think the difference between the HC and the queen was already resolved : later in this thread, but I strongly disagree with the premise that the : Pfhor would be incapable of survival without the queen. If that were the : case, the Pfhor would have never made it this far - they would be extinct. : If you destroy the queen bee in a bee hive, the hive creates another. I : think that the Pfhor more than likely have a mechansim for replacing the : queen and that the species very likely has the potential for isolated : groups to rebuild independently - otherwise they would have never survived : their own development. : Another intriguiging possibility is that the Pfhor did indeed place all their : eggs in one basket, literally. In terms of survival, one would never want : to restrict procreation to a single location, but the Pfhor High Council : (yes, there is a high council - not just a queen), being as paranoid about : total control as it was, might have made the decision long ago to : concentrate all Pfhor procreation or at least procreation of the highest : castes in a single location - the HC. This way they could exert total : control on the Empire at the expense of risking genocide from a single : attack. In that case, the sacking of the Pfhor homeworld might have had a : more significant effect than that of simply destroying the leadership - it : might have destroyed the capability to create new leaders (enforcers?), : leaving the Pfhor Empire without the capability to regain a sense of : direction, or it might have eliminated reproductive capabilities : altogether. : Also from the M2 Final Screen: : Despite having lost Leela, the Pfhor learned much from Tycho during the : seventeen years before he was destroyed by Durandal in the Lh'owon system. : All late-model Pfhor personality constructs were based on sixty-four : billion exobyte images of Tycho's core, taken during the years he was on : the Pfhor homeworld between 2795 and 2801 AD. Though never as intelligent : or useful as one of the Marathon's original three AIs, these machines : helped the Pfhor delay their inevitable defeat by the S'pht for over fifty : years. Many of these crippled clones of Tycho still exist today on old : Pfhor colony worlds. : : Now this is equally interesting. Once again, it was not just a human-Pfhor : war. Clearly, it was the S'pht, not humanity, that defeated the Pfhor. : Although we might not have taken to genocide, we have no idea what the : S'pht might have done. They might well have had no qualms about : eliminating their former masters. We also know that Tycho clones still : exist on Pfhor colony worlds some 10k or more years after the events of : M2. Now a number of scenario and story writers have interpreted this as : meaning that remnants of the Pfhor Empire persisted even after its defeat, : but there is clearly no indication of this here. Tycho lived on, but who : knows about the Pfhor?

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Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Cheerful	5/14/04 3:38 p.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Forrest of B.org	5/14/04 3:55 p.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Forrest of B.org	5/14/04 4:01 p.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Yossarian	5/14/04 5:48 p.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Cheerful	5/14/04 8:41 p.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Steve Levinson	5/17/04 5:51 a.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Mista_B	5/17/04 7:10 a.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Cheerful	5/17/04 11:58 a.m.
Re: Story Discussion and maybe a scenario idea?	Forrest of B.org	5/15/04 12:27 p.m.
Re: Another theory about the Pfhor	Cheerful	5/15/04 9:31 p.m.
Re: Another theory about the Pfhor	Forrest of B.org	5/16/04 8:17 p.m.
Re: Another theory about the Pfhor	Porky	5/19/04 4:24 a.m.



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	Your E-Mail Address:
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	Message: : Sorry I didn't have a chance to weigh in on this sooner, but I was away. : Yoss was definitely remembering Rubicon. Speaking of which, what are you : waiting for! What we do know of the end of the Pfhor empire comes from : the M2 final screen, but we still are uncertain as to whether that screen : occurred after the events of Infinity or if it was based on an M2 timeline : in which the W'rkncacnter was never released, in which case the downfall : of the Pfhor Empire is far from certain. I tend to believe that the M2 : final screen came after the events of Infinity, as I think I stated in the : in the Rubicon Volunteers series. : According to the M2 final screen: : It was ten thousand years before fate brought Durandal once again into : contact with man. The Pfhor were but a dim memory then, known only to a : few historians and students of Earth's second colonial period. The S'pht : had been nearly forgotten as well, and no man had seen a living specimen : of their race since the sacking of the Pfhor system by the combined fleets : of Earth and the S'pht'Kr in 2881 AD. : : From this we know that the Pfhor ultimately were marginalized to the point : that we never encountered them in the distant future and were likely : extinct. Why the S'pht had not been seen since the human-Pfhor war is : another subject of debate entirely, and there are definitely a number of : possibilities there. It is also clear that the human-Pfhor war was not : just a human-Pfhor war - the S'pht were ultimately involved. : I tend to agree with you here. Although an hierarchic organizational : structure was likely hard-wired into the species, they clearly were : capable of independent thought. In fact, it could be argued that no : species could develop a technologically advanced society without at least : some degree of independent thought. : I think the difference between the HC and the queen was already resolved : later in this thread, but I strongly disagree with the premise that the : Pfhor would be incapable of survival without the queen. If that were the : case, the Pfhor would have never made it this far - they would be extinct. : If you destroy the queen bee in a bee hive, the hive creates another. I : think that the Pfhor more than likely have a mechansim for replacing the : queen and that the species very likely has the potential for isolated : groups to rebuild independently - otherwise they would have never survived : their own development. : Another intriguiging possibility is that the Pfhor did indeed place all their : eggs in one basket, literally. In terms of survival, one would never want : to restrict procreation to a single location, but the Pfhor High Council : (yes, there is a high council - not just a queen), being as paranoid about : total control as it was, might have made the decision long ago to : concentrate all Pfhor procreation or at least procreation of the highest : castes in a single location - the HC. This way they could exert total : control on the Empire at the expense of risking genocide from a single : attack. In that case, the sacking of the Pfhor homeworld might have had a : more significant effect than that of simply destroying the leadership - it : might have destroyed the capability to create new leaders (enforcers?), : leaving the Pfhor Empire without the capability to regain a sense of : direction, or it might have eliminated reproductive capabilities : altogether. : Also from the M2 Final Screen: : Despite having lost Leela, the Pfhor learned much from Tycho during the : seventeen years before he was destroyed by Durandal in the Lh'owon system. : All late-model Pfhor personality constructs were based on sixty-four : billion exobyte images of Tycho's core, taken during the years he was on : the Pfhor homeworld between 2795 and 2801 AD. Though never as intelligent : or useful as one of the Marathon's original three AIs, these machines : helped the Pfhor delay their inevitable defeat by the S'pht for over fifty : years. Many of these crippled clones of Tycho still exist today on old : Pfhor colony worlds. : : Now this is equally interesting. Once again, it was not just a human-Pfhor : war. Clearly, it was the S'pht, not humanity, that defeated the Pfhor. : Although we might not have taken to genocide, we have no idea what the : S'pht might have done. They might well have had no qualms about : eliminating their former masters. We also know that Tycho clones still : exist on Pfhor colony worlds some 10k or more years after the events of : M2. Now a number of scenario and story writers have interpreted this as : meaning that remnants of the Pfhor Empire persisted even after its defeat, : but there is clearly no indication of this here. Tycho lived on, but who : knows about the Pfhor?
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