Re: Best 3rd pary scenario


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Re: Best 3rd pary scenario

Posted By: C Lund Date: 4/1/04 10:37 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Best 3rd pary scenario (goran)

: I'm don't think what you're saying is wrong, but I disagree with your use of
: the word "flow". Before I begin I want to state that this is not
: fact but my opinion so you're all free to disagree with me.
: A good flow means that the player flows in the map, like he's a river running
: his way through the terrain. Having only one way he can flow is of course
: not neccessary as you mentioned, maybe it's even better if he's options.
: However if a map makes a player lost, where he has flowed everywhere, or
: don't have the slightest where he aim to go you shouldn't call it good
: flow.
Ah, but how does one make the player "flow" in the right direction without reducing his/her choise of paths to one? Every time you add an alternate route you'll make some players get lost. Does that mean maps with flow only have one path?
I agree with your definition of "flow" meaning the player flows like a river through the map. But my rivers break up into lots of tiny channels before remerging at the end, while most rivers tend to just flow through the one big channel.
: Some players tend to like to explore, we can call em explorers, they
: like to examine the level in detail, go everywhere, the complexity of the
: map is a challenge they like. Playing an open terrain level where he can
: flow anywhere he like stimulates his mind and makes him happy. BUt we
: can't call this a good flow, for even if the explorer is happy, he's not
: flowing around good, he goes from place to another enjoying his search for
: the exit. A more accurate value instead of flow would be exploration. So
: if you pardon me, I'd say rubicon don't have good flow all the time, but
: it do have very good exploration.
I don't consider flow and exploration to be orthogonal values. BTW: I was a bit hasty yesterday when I wrote that I couldn't remember any games that had non-linear maps. Ghost Recon (which I'm currently playing for the second time) has lots of non-linear maps. There are also some occasional levels in Marathon that are non-linear (converted church, for instance).
: So what I want to tell you, C Lund, is that when players come to you and
: complain about being lost in your maps and getting irritated over it,
: there's something wrong, and you're the one to figure it out.
The thing is, most players have *not* complained about it. As I've stated before, the critics of Rubicon fall into three groups: Frigid and his "court", the Tempus team, and l33t dudes who were expecting Quake 4. And then there are the occasional others like yourself who just didn't like it.
So what I'm seeing is that *some* players hate Rubicon while most enjoyed it. You can do a google on rubicon if you want and read the player reviews.
The moral is that there is no pleasing everybody. Rubicon seems to have pleased over half the players and that's good enough for me. It's unfortunate that you are not one of them, but that is not my problem.
: Maybe there
: is something like best of both worlds, where exploration meets flow in a
: perfect match, but frankly rubicon in my opinion is not that scenario.
: You're majoring on exploration and minoring on flow. ( in general of
: course, there where a lot of different levels in rubicon, if it make you
: happy I can admit that some of them stroke the best of both worlds, but
: far from all)
Out of curiousity - which of those levels were they?
: Did you make the maps for you or for the people?
I make maps for people who want something other than the standard "railroad" map. Products aimed at "the people" tend to be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Hollywood does that, and as a result their movies stink. Airline food is also aimed at the lowest common denominator, and as a result their food is utterly bland. I didn't want to make a game like that.
I expected some players to be put off by my map designs. I wasn't prepared for the absolute hatred some felt for them though. Still, a product that players either love or hate is more interesting than a product everybody thinks is "ok".

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Best 3rd pary scenario Mneub12 3/26/04 6:00 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario the Battle Cat 3/26/04 6:31 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/26/04 8:05 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Mneub12 3/26/04 8:16 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/26/04 8:34 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Boomer 3/26/04 8:49 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/26/04 10:02 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/26/04 11:39 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Elliott 3/26/04 1:46 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 3/27/04 9:55 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/27/04 10:00 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 3/27/04 10:43 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Boomer 3/28/04 2:09 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/28/04 4:51 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Elliott 3/27/04 11:54 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario the Battle Cat 3/28/04 7:38 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 3/27/04 10:52 a.m.

Marathon: Dissent rampancy 4/6/04 9:41 a.m.

Re: Marathon: Dissent Steve Levinson 4/6/04 10:09 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Little Kago 3/28/04 1:46 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Elliott 3/28/04 7:10 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario the Battle Cat 3/29/04 6:10 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/28/04 8:58 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Little Kago 3/29/04 8:28 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/29/04 8:59 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/29/04 12:51 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 3/31/04 11:51 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/1/04 12:37 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 4/1/04 1:05 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/1/04 9:21 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Simon 4/1/04 1:15 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/1/04 9:33 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/1/04 10:49 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/2/04 10:18 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/2/04 10:58 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/2/04 11:13 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/2/04 11:43 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Yossarian 4/2/04 11:54 a.m.

Rubicon Textures Anaphiel 4/2/04 1:31 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/1/04 10:37 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Yossarian 4/1/04 11:31 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/2/04 11:02 a.m.

Out of curiosity . . . Steve Levinson 4/3/04 4:18 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . C Lund 4/3/04 8:26 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . C Lund 4/4/04 4:15 a.m.

excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/4/04 8:10 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. D-M.A. 4/4/04 9:02 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/4/04 11:24 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. D-M.A. 4/4/04 11:46 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/4/04 2:16 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. C Lund 4/5/04 2:28 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. D-M.A. 4/5/04 7:38 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. C Lund 4/5/04 2:25 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 8:16 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Elliott 4/5/04 8:49 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 11:04 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Yossarian 4/5/04 11:35 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 3:57 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Elliott 4/5/04 3:25 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 3:35 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Jacke 4/6/04 2:10 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. C Lund 4/6/04 12:03 a.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . Steve Levinson 4/4/04 5:14 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . Elliott 4/4/04 9:11 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . C Lund 4/5/04 2:30 a.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . Steve Levinson 4/7/04 6:35 a.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . goran 4/4/04 8:13 a.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:
: Ah, but how does one make the player "flow" in the right direction : without reducing his/her choise of paths to one? Every time you add an : alternate route you'll make some players get lost. Does that mean maps : with flow only have one path? : I agree with your definition of "flow" meaning the player flows : like a river through the map. But my rivers break up into lots of tiny : channels before remerging at the end, while most rivers tend to just flow : through the one big channel. : I don't consider flow and exploration to be orthogonal values. BTW: I was a : bit hasty yesterday when I wrote that I couldn't remember any games that : had non-linear maps. Ghost Recon (which I'm currently playing for the : second time) has lots of non-linear maps. There are also some occasional : levels in Marathon that are non-linear (converted church, for instance). : The thing is, most players have *not* complained about it. As I've stated : before, the critics of Rubicon fall into three groups: Frigid and his : "court", the Tempus team, and l33t dudes who were expecting : Quake 4. And then there are the occasional others like yourself who just : didn't like it. : So what I'm seeing is that *some* players hate Rubicon while most enjoyed it. : You can do a google on rubicon if you want and read the player reviews. : The moral is that there is no pleasing everybody. Rubicon seems to have : pleased over half the players and that's good enough for me. It's : unfortunate that you are not one of them, but that is not my problem. : Out of curiousity - which of those levels were they? : I make maps for people who want something other than the standard : "railroad" map. Products aimed at "the people" tend to : be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Hollywood does that, and as a : result their movies stink. Airline food is also aimed at the lowest common : denominator, and as a result their food is utterly bland. I didn't want to : make a game like that. : I expected some players to be put off by my map designs. I wasn't prepared : for the absolute hatred some felt for them though. Still, a product that : players either love or hate is more interesting than a product everybody : thinks is "ok".

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Best 3rd pary scenario	Mneub12	3/26/04 6:00 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	the Battle Cat	3/26/04 6:31 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/26/04 8:05 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Mneub12	3/26/04 8:16 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/26/04 8:34 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Boomer	3/26/04 8:49 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/26/04 10:02 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/26/04 11:39 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Elliott	3/26/04 1:46 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	3/27/04 9:55 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/27/04 10:00 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	3/27/04 10:43 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Boomer	3/28/04 2:09 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/28/04 4:51 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Elliott	3/27/04 11:54 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	the Battle Cat	3/28/04 7:38 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	3/27/04 10:52 a.m.
Marathon: Dissent	rampancy	4/6/04 9:41 a.m.
Re: Marathon: Dissent	Steve Levinson	4/6/04 10:09 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Little Kago	3/28/04 1:46 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Elliott	3/28/04 7:10 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	the Battle Cat	3/29/04 6:10 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/28/04 8:58 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Little Kago	3/29/04 8:28 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/29/04 8:59 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/29/04 12:51 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	3/31/04 11:51 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/1/04 12:37 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	4/1/04 1:05 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/1/04 9:21 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Simon	4/1/04 1:15 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/1/04 9:33 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/1/04 10:49 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/2/04 10:18 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/2/04 10:58 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/2/04 11:13 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/2/04 11:43 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Yossarian	4/2/04 11:54 a.m.
Rubicon Textures	Anaphiel	4/2/04 1:31 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/1/04 10:37 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Yossarian	4/1/04 11:31 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/2/04 11:02 a.m.
Out of curiosity . . .	Steve Levinson	4/3/04 4:18 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	C Lund	4/3/04 8:26 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	C Lund	4/4/04 4:15 a.m.
excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/4/04 8:10 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	D-M.A.	4/4/04 9:02 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/4/04 11:24 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	D-M.A.	4/4/04 11:46 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/4/04 2:16 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	C Lund	4/5/04 2:28 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	D-M.A.	4/5/04 7:38 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	C Lund	4/5/04 2:25 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 8:16 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Elliott	4/5/04 8:49 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 11:04 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Yossarian	4/5/04 11:35 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 3:57 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Elliott	4/5/04 3:25 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 3:35 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Jacke	4/6/04 2:10 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	C Lund	4/6/04 12:03 a.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	Steve Levinson	4/4/04 5:14 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	Elliott	4/4/04 9:11 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	C Lund	4/5/04 2:30 a.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	Steve Levinson	4/7/04 6:35 a.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	goran	4/4/04 8:13 a.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : Ah, but how does one make the player "flow" in the right direction : without reducing his/her choise of paths to one? Every time you add an : alternate route you'll make some players get lost. Does that mean maps : with flow only have one path? : I agree with your definition of "flow" meaning the player flows : like a river through the map. But my rivers break up into lots of tiny : channels before remerging at the end, while most rivers tend to just flow : through the one big channel. : I don't consider flow and exploration to be orthogonal values. BTW: I was a : bit hasty yesterday when I wrote that I couldn't remember any games that : had non-linear maps. Ghost Recon (which I'm currently playing for the : second time) has lots of non-linear maps. There are also some occasional : levels in Marathon that are non-linear (converted church, for instance). : The thing is, most players have not complained about it. As I've stated : before, the critics of Rubicon fall into three groups: Frigid and his : "court", the Tempus team, and l33t dudes who were expecting : Quake 4. And then there are the occasional others like yourself who just : didn't like it. : So what I'm seeing is that some players hate Rubicon while most enjoyed it. : You can do a google on rubicon if you want and read the player reviews. : The moral is that there is no pleasing everybody. Rubicon seems to have : pleased over half the players and that's good enough for me. It's : unfortunate that you are not one of them, but that is not my problem. : Out of curiousity - which of those levels were they? : I make maps for people who want something other than the standard : "railroad" map. Products aimed at "the people" tend to : be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Hollywood does that, and as a : result their movies stink. Airline food is also aimed at the lowest common : denominator, and as a result their food is utterly bland. I didn't want to : make a game like that. : I expected some players to be put off by my map designs. I wasn't prepared : for the absolute hatred some felt for them though. Still, a product that : players either love or hate is more interesting than a product everybody : thinks is "ok".
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