Re: Best 3rd pary scenario


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Re: Best 3rd pary scenario

Posted By: goran Date: 4/1/04 12:37 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Best 3rd pary scenario (C Lund)

: What makes good or bad flow is obviously a question of taste. Some people
: hate Rubicon because the levels have bad flow, others love Rubicon because
: the levels have good flow. Flow is iow subjective.
: But I am well aware that I have a completely different philosophy wrt map
: layout than that of most cartographers, and many players hate it. Most
: levels in every game I've ever played are basically a linear set of track
: curled up into itself. The player can only take one route through a map.
: The players have no choises, no alternate routes, and are stuck on the
: rails the mapmaker has put down for them. This is what the critics of
: Rubicon think of as "flow". I call it "railroading".
: Railroading obviously works, since most games use it and the players don't
: complain, but I'd like to be able to go in all sorts of directions and
: explore rather than just follow the preset path.
: And that's why most of my maps are wide open. The player can go in any
: direction they want. Instead of just killing everything in an area and
: then leaving through the *one* exit, the player has three or four exits to
: choose from, each leading to different areas. The real world works like
: this.
I'm don't think what you're saying is wrong, but I disagree with your use of the word "flow". Before I begin I want to state that this is not fact but my opinion so you're all free to disagree with me.
A good flow means that the player flows in the map, like he's a river running his way through the terrain. Having only one way he can flow is of course not neccessary as you mentioned, maybe it's even better if he's options. However if a map makes a player lost, where he has flowed everywhere, or don't have the slightest where he aim to go you shouldn't call it good flow. Some players tend to like to explore, we can call em explorers, they like to examine the level in detail, go everywhere, the complexity of the map is a challenge they like. Playing an open terrain level where he can flow anywhere he like stimulates his mind and makes him happy. BUt we can't call this a good flow, for even if the explorer is happy, he's not flowing around good, he goes from place to another enjoying his search for the exit. A more accurate value instead of flow would be exploration. So if you pardon me, I'd say rubicon don't have good flow all the time, but it do have very good exploration.
While I am at it, are explorers not the majority, so building a scenario around this theme of mapping is a risk. Pro leveldesigners (mappers) have the player in mind while they map, they threat him as an object they must take care to while creating every part of the map. Making a player unhappy is not your task, your focus is heavyly put on making him happy. This might mean making you unhappy sometimes. There's so many examples of player psychology just in the volunteers series. Last thing I read was about a critical terminal you could miss if you didn't take the left option where you hade multiple choiches to go. The players wanted Ian to have a switch at the terminal so they couldn't miss it. Well this was an easy example. But lets discuss something else. Lets say you've made a decent map and now you're planning to have a big group of monsters teleporting in on the main path of the level. TO make it doable to deal with them for the less experienced players you have put an AR-75 on an alternative path. You think it's like a reward for those who dare to be orginal in their playing style, so it's fair to place it somewhere of the side of the road. The stupid thing with this is that the less experienced players will follow the main path and miss the AR-75, they will enter the big group of baddies poorly armed and die. and most of all they will feel unhappy. This is an example of poor player psychology for the motive of the AR-75, and to some point it's even bad flow.
So what I want to tell you, C Lund, is that when players come to you and complain about being lost in your maps and getting irritated over it, there's something wrong, and you're the one to figure it out. Maybe there is something like best of both worlds, where exploration meets flow in a perfect match, but frankly rubicon in my opinion is not that scenario. You're majoring on exploration and minoring on flow. ( in general of course, there where a lot of different levels in rubicon, if it make you happy I can admit that some of them stroke the best of both worlds, but far from all)
: But I can see how players who prefer to just follow a linear path would be
: frustrated by my maps. Personally, I feel hemmed in by linear maps. I like
: being able to take alternate routes. To me, flow is a much subtle thing
: than simply making a map linear.
Did you make the maps for you or for the people?

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Best 3rd pary scenario Mneub12 3/26/04 6:00 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario the Battle Cat 3/26/04 6:31 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/26/04 8:05 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Mneub12 3/26/04 8:16 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/26/04 8:34 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Boomer 3/26/04 8:49 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/26/04 10:02 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/26/04 11:39 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Elliott 3/26/04 1:46 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 3/27/04 9:55 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/27/04 10:00 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 3/27/04 10:43 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Boomer 3/28/04 2:09 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/28/04 4:51 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Elliott 3/27/04 11:54 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario the Battle Cat 3/28/04 7:38 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 3/27/04 10:52 a.m.

Marathon: Dissent rampancy 4/6/04 9:41 a.m.

Re: Marathon: Dissent Steve Levinson 4/6/04 10:09 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Little Kago 3/28/04 1:46 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Elliott 3/28/04 7:10 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario the Battle Cat 3/29/04 6:10 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/28/04 8:58 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Little Kago 3/29/04 8:28 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 3/29/04 8:59 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Adam Ashwell 3/29/04 12:51 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 3/31/04 11:51 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/1/04 12:37 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Steve Levinson 4/1/04 1:05 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/1/04 9:21 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Simon 4/1/04 1:15 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/1/04 9:33 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/1/04 10:49 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/2/04 10:18 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/2/04 10:58 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/2/04 11:13 a.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/2/04 11:43 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Yossarian 4/2/04 11:54 a.m.

Rubicon Textures Anaphiel 4/2/04 1:31 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario C Lund 4/1/04 10:37 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario Yossarian 4/1/04 11:31 p.m.

Re: Best 3rd pary scenario goran 4/2/04 11:02 a.m.

Out of curiosity . . . Steve Levinson 4/3/04 4:18 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . C Lund 4/3/04 8:26 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . C Lund 4/4/04 4:15 a.m.

excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/4/04 8:10 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. D-M.A. 4/4/04 9:02 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/4/04 11:24 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. D-M.A. 4/4/04 11:46 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/4/04 2:16 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. C Lund 4/5/04 2:28 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. D-M.A. 4/5/04 7:38 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. C Lund 4/5/04 2:25 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 8:16 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Elliott 4/5/04 8:49 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 11:04 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Yossarian 4/5/04 11:35 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 3:57 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Elliott 4/5/04 3:25 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. goran 4/5/04 3:35 p.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. Jacke 4/6/04 2:10 a.m.

Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun. C Lund 4/6/04 12:03 a.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . Steve Levinson 4/4/04 5:14 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . Elliott 4/4/04 9:11 p.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . C Lund 4/5/04 2:30 a.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . Steve Levinson 4/7/04 6:35 a.m.

Re: Out of curiosity . . . goran 4/4/04 8:13 a.m.

[ Post a Reply | Message Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg ]
Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:
: I'm don't think what you're saying is wrong, but I disagree with your use of : the word "flow". Before I begin I want to state that this is not : fact but my opinion so you're all free to disagree with me. : A good flow means that the player flows in the map, like he's a river running : his way through the terrain. Having only one way he can flow is of course : not neccessary as you mentioned, maybe it's even better if he's options. : However if a map makes a player lost, where he has flowed everywhere, or : don't have the slightest where he aim to go you shouldn't call it good : flow. Some players tend to like to explore, we can call em explorers, they : like to examine the level in detail, go everywhere, the complexity of the : map is a challenge they like. Playing an open terrain level where he can : flow anywhere he like stimulates his mind and makes him happy. BUt we : can't call this a good flow, for even if the explorer is happy, he's not : flowing around good, he goes from place to another enjoying his search for : the exit. A more accurate value instead of flow would be exploration. So : if you pardon me, I'd say rubicon don't have good flow all the time, but : it do have very good exploration. : While I am at it, are explorers not the majority, so building a scenario : around this theme of mapping is a risk. Pro leveldesigners (mappers) have : the player in mind while they map, they threat him as an object they must : take care to while creating every part of the map. Making a player unhappy : is not your task, your focus is heavyly put on making him happy. This : might mean making you unhappy sometimes. There's so many examples of : player psychology just in the volunteers series. Last thing I read was : about a critical terminal you could miss if you didn't take the left : option where you hade multiple choiches to go. The players wanted Ian to : have a switch at the terminal so they couldn't miss it. Well this was an : easy example. But lets discuss something else. Lets say you've made a : decent map and now you're planning to have a big group of monsters : teleporting in on the main path of the level. TO make it doable to deal : with them for the less experienced players you have put an AR-75 on an : alternative path. You think it's like a reward for those who dare to be : orginal in their playing style, so it's fair to place it somewhere of the : side of the road. The stupid thing with this is that the less experienced : players will follow the main path and miss the AR-75, they will enter the : big group of baddies poorly armed and die. and most of all they will feel : unhappy. This is an example of poor player psychology for the motive of : the AR-75, and to some point it's even bad flow. : So what I want to tell you, C Lund, is that when players come to you and : complain about being lost in your maps and getting irritated over it, : there's something wrong, and you're the one to figure it out. Maybe there : is something like best of both worlds, where exploration meets flow in a : perfect match, but frankly rubicon in my opinion is not that scenario. : You're majoring on exploration and minoring on flow. ( in general of : course, there where a lot of different levels in rubicon, if it make you : happy I can admit that some of them stroke the best of both worlds, but : far from all) : Did you make the maps for you or for the people?

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Best 3rd pary scenario	Mneub12	3/26/04 6:00 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	the Battle Cat	3/26/04 6:31 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/26/04 8:05 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Mneub12	3/26/04 8:16 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/26/04 8:34 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Boomer	3/26/04 8:49 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/26/04 10:02 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/26/04 11:39 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Elliott	3/26/04 1:46 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	3/27/04 9:55 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/27/04 10:00 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	3/27/04 10:43 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Boomer	3/28/04 2:09 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/28/04 4:51 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Elliott	3/27/04 11:54 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	the Battle Cat	3/28/04 7:38 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	3/27/04 10:52 a.m.
Marathon: Dissent	rampancy	4/6/04 9:41 a.m.
Re: Marathon: Dissent	Steve Levinson	4/6/04 10:09 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Little Kago	3/28/04 1:46 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Elliott	3/28/04 7:10 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	the Battle Cat	3/29/04 6:10 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/28/04 8:58 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Little Kago	3/29/04 8:28 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	3/29/04 8:59 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Adam Ashwell	3/29/04 12:51 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	3/31/04 11:51 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/1/04 12:37 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Steve Levinson	4/1/04 1:05 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/1/04 9:21 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Simon	4/1/04 1:15 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/1/04 9:33 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/1/04 10:49 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/2/04 10:18 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/2/04 10:58 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/2/04 11:13 a.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/2/04 11:43 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Yossarian	4/2/04 11:54 a.m.
Rubicon Textures	Anaphiel	4/2/04 1:31 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	C Lund	4/1/04 10:37 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	Yossarian	4/1/04 11:31 p.m.
Re: Best 3rd pary scenario	goran	4/2/04 11:02 a.m.
Out of curiosity . . .	Steve Levinson	4/3/04 4:18 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	C Lund	4/3/04 8:26 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	C Lund	4/4/04 4:15 a.m.
excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/4/04 8:10 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	D-M.A.	4/4/04 9:02 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/4/04 11:24 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	D-M.A.	4/4/04 11:46 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/4/04 2:16 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	C Lund	4/5/04 2:28 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	D-M.A.	4/5/04 7:38 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	C Lund	4/5/04 2:25 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 8:16 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Elliott	4/5/04 8:49 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 11:04 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Yossarian	4/5/04 11:35 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 3:57 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Elliott	4/5/04 3:25 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	goran	4/5/04 3:35 p.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	Jacke	4/6/04 2:10 a.m.
Re: excuse? my ass. This is fun.	C Lund	4/6/04 12:03 a.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	Steve Levinson	4/4/04 5:14 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	Elliott	4/4/04 9:11 p.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	C Lund	4/5/04 2:30 a.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	Steve Levinson	4/7/04 6:35 a.m.
Re: Out of curiosity . . .	goran	4/4/04 8:13 a.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : I'm don't think what you're saying is wrong, but I disagree with your use of : the word "flow". Before I begin I want to state that this is not : fact but my opinion so you're all free to disagree with me. : A good flow means that the player flows in the map, like he's a river running : his way through the terrain. Having only one way he can flow is of course : not neccessary as you mentioned, maybe it's even better if he's options. : However if a map makes a player lost, where he has flowed everywhere, or : don't have the slightest where he aim to go you shouldn't call it good : flow. Some players tend to like to explore, we can call em explorers, they : like to examine the level in detail, go everywhere, the complexity of the : map is a challenge they like. Playing an open terrain level where he can : flow anywhere he like stimulates his mind and makes him happy. BUt we : can't call this a good flow, for even if the explorer is happy, he's not : flowing around good, he goes from place to another enjoying his search for : the exit. A more accurate value instead of flow would be exploration. So : if you pardon me, I'd say rubicon don't have good flow all the time, but : it do have very good exploration. : While I am at it, are explorers not the majority, so building a scenario : around this theme of mapping is a risk. Pro leveldesigners (mappers) have : the player in mind while they map, they threat him as an object they must : take care to while creating every part of the map. Making a player unhappy : is not your task, your focus is heavyly put on making him happy. This : might mean making you unhappy sometimes. There's so many examples of : player psychology just in the volunteers series. Last thing I read was : about a critical terminal you could miss if you didn't take the left : option where you hade multiple choiches to go. The players wanted Ian to : have a switch at the terminal so they couldn't miss it. Well this was an : easy example. But lets discuss something else. Lets say you've made a : decent map and now you're planning to have a big group of monsters : teleporting in on the main path of the level. TO make it doable to deal : with them for the less experienced players you have put an AR-75 on an : alternative path. You think it's like a reward for those who dare to be : orginal in their playing style, so it's fair to place it somewhere of the : side of the road. The stupid thing with this is that the less experienced : players will follow the main path and miss the AR-75, they will enter the : big group of baddies poorly armed and die. and most of all they will feel : unhappy. This is an example of poor player psychology for the motive of : the AR-75, and to some point it's even bad flow. : So what I want to tell you, C Lund, is that when players come to you and : complain about being lost in your maps and getting irritated over it, : there's something wrong, and you're the one to figure it out. Maybe there : is something like best of both worlds, where exploration meets flow in a : perfect match, but frankly rubicon in my opinion is not that scenario. : You're majoring on exploration and minoring on flow. ( in general of : course, there where a lot of different levels in rubicon, if it make you : happy I can admit that some of them stroke the best of both worlds, but : far from all) : Did you make the maps for you or for the people?
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