Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation


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Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation

Posted By: Godot Date: 10/14/12 5:40 a.m.
In Response To: Hindmost Creche Speculation (Philtron)

: So, what is the Hindmost Creche? I haven't been able to find much discussion
: about it on the MSP.
Interesting discussion and very welcome as it has prompted me to read Man-Kzin Wars VII, but more on that later.
Agreed that the reference to the 'Hindmost Creche' has received little discussion on the Story page, but then again it has only been 17 years. Plenty of time yet…
I did came across this old forum post on the subject.
http://forums.bungie.org/story/?noframes;read=30941
The 'someone' who originally spotted the Larry Niven "Hindmost" reference was Angus McIntyre back in June 10, 1997. Here's what he said at the time:

The Hindmost is the name of the leader of the Puppeteers (oooh, now there's a significant name) in Larry Niven's "Known Space" series, particularly "Ringworld". The Hindmost him/her/itself wasn't insane, but Nessus, the Hindmost's consort, *was*. A Puppeteer, by the way, was so-called because it looked like "a headless three-legged centaur wearing two Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent puppets on its hands", but as a race they indulged in extensive manipulation of all intelligent species that they encountered. There's some grounds for suspecting a Niven influence on Bungie; Niven and Pournelle's "Legacy of Heorot" has acquatic monsters called Grendels (I think that's already been pointed out extensively).

Greg Kirkpatrick has gone on record stating that Larry Niven's Ringworld and Man-Kzin wars were inspiration for Marathon. He wrote in 1996:

We were just sitting around talking about things, and i blabbin on and on about Larry Niven : "ringworld", Man-Kzin wars, etc. I read all those many years ago, but i still remember them...

What I didn't know (until today) was that the concept of a 'Hindmost creche' appears in Man-Kzin Wars VII (published in 1995). Note that date. Volume seven in the Man-Kzin Wars series is an anthology of three stories collected by Larry Niven for his series. The relevant story is 'A Darker Geometry' by Mark O. Martin & Gregory Benford. It is probably one of the better Man-Kzin Wars stories and was re-published in expanded form in 1996 under its own title. Here's the 'Hindmost creche' piece:

To a Guardian of the puppeteer race, duty was All.
Such was the purpose for which Guardians had been born and bred over millennia. Duty to the Hindmost, always; such were the first words a foal of the Guardian caste heard in creche. And it was the last thought to be prized, at the end of a long life of service.

A Darker Geometry is well worth a read, particularly the Outsider sections.
The parallels between Larry Niven's Known Space and Marathon are easily spotted, not least by the Outsiders/Jjaro similarities. Bungie would later use this again in Halo with the Forerunners.
One wonders if our destination at the end of Marathon 2 was a 'ringworld' orbiting that rogue star Durandal refers to.

There is a rogue star that has been passing through our galaxy for nearly a millennia.
We will meet it in one of the great voids between the spiral arms.

Now wouldn't that have been something. ;)
But I digress.
As I live by the principle of Occam's razor (lex parsimoniae) I will opt for the simpler theory (echoed by chiasaur11) until such time as it is proved false or wanting.
Thanks for another stimulating Philtron post. :)
Cheers
Hamish

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Pre-2004 Posts

Replies:

Hindmost Creche Speculation Philtron 10/12/12 5:22 p.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Earthtopus 10/12/12 8:32 p.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Jabberwok 10/14/12 3:05 p.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Forrest of B.org 10/12/12 10:55 p.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation chiasaur11 10/13/12 8:30 p.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation PerseusSpartacus 10/17/12 4:07 p.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Forrest of B.org 10/18/12 12:04 a.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Philtron 10/18/12 5:58 a.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Godot 10/14/12 5:40 a.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Jabberwok 10/14/12 3:03 p.m.

Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation Yossarian 10/18/12 12:10 a.m.

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Pre-2004 Posts

Your Name:
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: Interesting discussion and very welcome as it has prompted me to read : Man-Kzin Wars VII, but more on that later. : Agreed that the reference to the 'Hindmost Creche' has received little : discussion on the Story page, but then again it has only been 17 years. : Plenty of time yet… : I did came across this old forum post on the subject. : http://forums.bungie.org/story/?noframes;read=30941 : The 'someone' who originally spotted the Larry Niven "Hindmost" : reference was Angus McIntyre back in June 10, 1997. Here's what he said at : the time: : The Hindmost is the name of the leader of the Puppeteers (oooh, now there's a : significant name) in Larry Niven's "Known Space" series, : particularly "Ringworld". The Hindmost him/her/itself wasn't : insane, but Nessus, the Hindmost's consort, *was*. A Puppeteer, by the : way, was so-called because it looked like "a headless three-legged : centaur wearing two Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent puppets on its : hands", but as a race they indulged in extensive manipulation of all : intelligent species that they encountered. There's some grounds for : suspecting a Niven influence on Bungie; Niven and Pournelle's "Legacy : of Heorot" has acquatic monsters called Grendels (I think that's : already been pointed out extensively). : : Greg Kirkpatrick has gone on record stating that Larry Niven's Ringworld and : Man-Kzin wars were inspiration for Marathon. He wrote in 1996: : We were just sitting around talking about things, and i blabbin on and on : about Larry Niven : "ringworld", Man-Kzin wars, etc. I read all : those many years ago, but i still remember them... : : What I didn't know (until today) was that the concept of a 'Hindmost creche' : appears in Man-Kzin Wars VII (published in 1995). Note that date. Volume : seven in the Man-Kzin Wars series is an anthology of three stories : collected by Larry Niven for his series. The relevant story is 'A Darker : Geometry' by Mark O. Martin & Gregory Benford. It is probably one of : the better Man-Kzin Wars stories and was re-published in expanded form in : 1996 under its own title. Here's the 'Hindmost creche' piece: : To a Guardian of the puppeteer race, duty was All. : Such was the purpose for which Guardians had been born and bred over : millennia. Duty to the Hindmost, always; such were the first words a foal : of the Guardian caste heard in creche. And it was the last thought to be : prized, at the end of a long life of service. : : A Darker Geometry is well worth a read, particularly the Outsider sections. : The parallels between Larry Niven's Known Space and Marathon are easily : spotted, not least by the Outsiders/Jjaro similarities. Bungie would later : use this again in Halo with the Forerunners. : One wonders if our destination at the end of Marathon 2 was a 'ringworld' : orbiting that rogue star Durandal refers to. : : There is a rogue star that has been passing through our galaxy for nearly a : millennia. : We will meet it in one of the great voids between the spiral arms. : : Now wouldn't that have been something. ;) : But I digress. : As I live by the principle of Occam's razor (lex parsimoniae) I will opt for : the simpler theory (echoed by chiasaur11) until such time as it is proved : false or wanting. : Thanks for another stimulating Philtron post. :) : Cheers : Hamish

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Hindmost Creche Speculation	Philtron	10/12/12 5:22 p.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Earthtopus	10/12/12 8:32 p.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Jabberwok	10/14/12 3:05 p.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Forrest of B.org	10/12/12 10:55 p.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	chiasaur11	10/13/12 8:30 p.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	PerseusSpartacus	10/17/12 4:07 p.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Forrest of B.org	10/18/12 12:04 a.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Philtron	10/18/12 5:58 a.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Godot	10/14/12 5:40 a.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Jabberwok	10/14/12 3:03 p.m.
Re: Hindmost Creche Speculation	Yossarian	10/18/12 12:10 a.m.



	Your Name:
	Your E-Mail Address:
	Subject:
	Message: : Interesting discussion and very welcome as it has prompted me to read : Man-Kzin Wars VII, but more on that later. : Agreed that the reference to the 'Hindmost Creche' has received little : discussion on the Story page, but then again it has only been 17 years. : Plenty of time yet… : I did came across this old forum post on the subject. : http://forums.bungie.org/story/?noframes;read=30941 : The 'someone' who originally spotted the Larry Niven "Hindmost" : reference was Angus McIntyre back in June 10, 1997. Here's what he said at : the time: : The Hindmost is the name of the leader of the Puppeteers (oooh, now there's a : significant name) in Larry Niven's "Known Space" series, : particularly "Ringworld". The Hindmost him/her/itself wasn't : insane, but Nessus, the Hindmost's consort, was. A Puppeteer, by the : way, was so-called because it looked like "a headless three-legged : centaur wearing two Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent puppets on its : hands", but as a race they indulged in extensive manipulation of all : intelligent species that they encountered. There's some grounds for : suspecting a Niven influence on Bungie; Niven and Pournelle's "Legacy : of Heorot" has acquatic monsters called Grendels (I think that's : already been pointed out extensively). : : Greg Kirkpatrick has gone on record stating that Larry Niven's Ringworld and : Man-Kzin wars were inspiration for Marathon. He wrote in 1996: : We were just sitting around talking about things, and i blabbin on and on : about Larry Niven : "ringworld", Man-Kzin wars, etc. I read all : those many years ago, but i still remember them... : : What I didn't know (until today) was that the concept of a 'Hindmost creche' : appears in Man-Kzin Wars VII (published in 1995). Note that date. Volume : seven in the Man-Kzin Wars series is an anthology of three stories : collected by Larry Niven for his series. The relevant story is 'A Darker : Geometry' by Mark O. Martin & Gregory Benford. It is probably one of : the better Man-Kzin Wars stories and was re-published in expanded form in : 1996 under its own title. Here's the 'Hindmost creche' piece: : To a Guardian of the puppeteer race, duty was All. : Such was the purpose for which Guardians had been born and bred over : millennia. Duty to the Hindmost, always; such were the first words a foal : of the Guardian caste heard in creche. And it was the last thought to be : prized, at the end of a long life of service. : : A Darker Geometry is well worth a read, particularly the Outsider sections. : The parallels between Larry Niven's Known Space and Marathon are easily : spotted, not least by the Outsiders/Jjaro similarities. Bungie would later : use this again in Halo with the Forerunners. : One wonders if our destination at the end of Marathon 2 was a 'ringworld' : orbiting that rogue star Durandal refers to. : : There is a rogue star that has been passing through our galaxy for nearly a : millennia. : We will meet it in one of the great voids between the spiral arms. : : Now wouldn't that have been something. ;) : But I digress. : As I live by the principle of Occam's razor (lex parsimoniae) I will opt for : the simpler theory (echoed by chiasaur11) until such time as it is proved : false or wanting. : Thanks for another stimulating Philtron post. :) : Cheers : Hamish
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